Eclipse (was Criterion Cult Film Sub Company)

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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:07 pm

#76 Post by Gregory »

Good point, zedz, although I'd be a bit surprised if they have access to that many. I'd like to see them up their regular output, which they've said they have but it really hasn't changed much.
sai wrote:But what about, for example, the Fox Film Noir Line? I certainly don't think that bundling those films into one canon in any way decreases their special-ness. In fact, it helps to bring them to a wider audience.
There are differences of course, since Criterion has a name for releasing high art and Fox has a name for releasing, well, movies they have released, and therefore a Criterion sub-company can easier be seen as lesser than the original.
The main difference is that with "cult" and horror we're not talking about areas of film that are not merely grouped as a genre or movement (like film noir is) but are isolated because they're assumed to be unworthy of serious attention. This is what I observed earlier in the thread, that even supposed devotees of some of the great films threating them with ridicule, calling them "schlock," etc. Criterion, for reasons I think we agree on, seems to have an interest in reinforcing this trend.
Film noir, on the other hand, has been an entirely different scenario (at least in recent decades. There's been a large portion of the critical literature devoted to exploring it, and (unlike mere "crime films") film noir has plenty of snob appeal. If Criterion started a noir series or something, I think it would be a different matter.
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Derek Estes
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:00 am
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#77 Post by Derek Estes »

Just keep the standards high. That is my only concern.
If these films are released with the same care given to films in the main collection, all this is going to do is bring in a larger audience -I know several people that don't pay attention to Criterion, but are all over the labels that specialize in cult/horror films like Blue Underground, Fantoma etc. The care they give these releases will elevate them to the level of respect that many people here are concerned these films are being denied. And ultimately, it is up to the viewer to decide if they are good or not, not a distribution label. If you are concerned that you will not be able to back up your defence for these films with out the Criterion Collection, then you are a coward. It is more important that these films be available, and in the best possible condition. I love what Criterion does, but at the end of the day I could give a shit about their opinion, there are plenty of films in their Collection that I personally feel are trash i.e. A Constant Forge. Bring on the Cult Label!
Long Live Cinema!
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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:07 pm

#78 Post by Gregory »

Derek Estes wrote:If you are concerned that you will not be able to back up your defence for these films with out the Criterion Collection, then you are a coward.
Whether or not that was directed at anyone in particular, I want to stress that that was not my point -- at all.
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Derek Estes
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:00 am
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#79 Post by Derek Estes »

It was a general statement. I had no one in particular in mind. I still believe it though.
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katjakassin
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:24 am
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#80 Post by katjakassin »

Gregory wrote:I'm a bit suspicious of the term "art horror" and I worry that it may reinforce the notion that horror film is an unworthy genre. The same with the term "cult film."
Carnival of souls has many of the same budget constraints and genre conventions as horror films by, say, George Romero and countless others. What makes Vampyr or Cabinet of Dr Caligari more "art" than Dawn of the Dead or Texas Chainsaw Massacre? They're older, they're "foreign," and are taught more in film schools, and thus have more snob appeal (not saying anyone here is being a snob, necessarily, just exploring the content of some of this terminology). But 1970s U.S. horror films at their best are just as rich and intelligent as the best of their predecessors.
Designating horror films (and others) as "genre pictures" is using a term of abuse that for many people says that these are less deserving of serious attention. If one wants to elevate a horror film out of its ghetto, another term has to be used: "art horror" or "thriller" (e.g. Silence of the Lambs). Similarly, the terms "cult," "exploitation," "schlock," and the like are more terms of abuse used to put vast groups of films in their place, when many of them are actually deserve serious appreciation and respect. In other words, we can enjoy watching these films to laugh at them but we want it to be clear that we're not really taking them seriously.
Criterion may be doing the very same thing by creating a ghetto for "cult" and horror films. If they want to create a lower-priced line, that's great, but why make it a ghetto for films that they like but that lack snob appeal in order to avoid tainting the reputation of the rest of the collection.

I agree completely with the termonolgy that gets thrown around when it comes to horror genre related movies. I hear more "Cheese" references get thrown around then I care to admit to, and it makes my head spin. Nine times out of ten when I hear or read a review or what not and it is started by said term or something to that affect, the rest goes on to make the movie nothing more than joke (Though that may be a little harsh for me to say).

And as far as Carnival of Souls being any sort of an "Art" film, that to me is a joke. I own it, and on some level appreciate it, but an "Art" film it is not to me.

As far as Criterion doing a "Cult" line, I'm all for that. If for no other reason then how they treat their releases and what they get released. Now I do view it as a double edged sword in that very few genre releases will see the light of day in the spine number world, but I feel that a lot of other movies would get a very nice release that in all actuality shouldn't really be placed in the Criterion catolouge.

But at the same time, Blue Underground, Unearthed, Synapse, and Anchor Bay all do a really nice job on their releases. And they all put out their fair share of titles, so I'd be kind of interested to see what Criterion would be putting out if you know what I mean.

And on the same hand, are these more along the lines of El Topoesque titles or titles like A Nightmare on Elm Street. I for one would love to see them do a line for films like The Monster Squad and the likes. Films that I love with all my heart, but would look a little weird along side Andrei Rublev.

But, I'd hope that they'd do a little better job on said titles than from what I've been seeing with the Merchant Ivory Collection. A lot of those discs are very lack luster to say the least.
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Gordon
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm

#81 Post by Gordon »

Gregory wrote:
The main difference is that with "cult" and horror we're not talking about areas of film that are not merely grouped as a genre or movement (like film noir is) but are isolated because they're assumed to be unworthy of serious attention.
This is what Raymond Durgnat brilliantly addresses in his exemplary text, Films and Feelings, especially the last chapter, which mainly focuses on This Island Earth in a serious and intelligent way. I love the film and despise the smart-ass Mystery Science Theater 3000 "version". I despise all kinds of film snobbery. I may not like many recent films, but I will never deem them 'unworthy' or a 'waste'. Never understimate the taste of a 12-year-old boy - less you forget that you were once one yourself!

If Criterion create a new label for horror and sci-fi, I'll be a bit disappointed with them, as I feel there are many films from these genres that deserves to sit alongside Bergman and Dreyer. But if it means that films that are being neglected get high-quality DVDs from the people who work for Criterion, then I won't complain.
DrewReiber
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:27 am

#82 Post by DrewReiber »

katjakassin wrote:And on the same hand, are these more along the lines of El Topoesque titles or titles like A Nightmare on Elm Street. I for one would love to see them do a line for films like The Monster Squad and the likes. Films that I love with all my heart, but would look a little weird along side Andrei Rublev.
That's because you're already grouping them by genre or cult status rather than quality. Ok, just so I'm clear about this, I looooooooove Monster Squad. It's probably in my top 10 horror films of all time when it comes to preference. But it doesn't necessarily belong among innovative or otherwise culturally signifigant features like Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Dawn of the Dead. What you are doing by grouping these films is to allow yourself to fall prey to cultural biases in the American concept of "art".

Why is alright to put Cronenberg's Videodrome next to Rublev, but not Jodorowsky's El Topo? There is simply no valid argument that will create a consistency for what is relevent and what isn't when weighing the overall Criterion Collection. For Criterion to prejudge their acquisitions in terms of quality as to what is deemed unworthy of their highest spotlight only furthers the cultural ignorance of what art is by confirming the suspicions of the American film market, which has only just recently begun to improve it's intelligence due to this very home video format. It's a step backward and they have the choice as to whether or not they do it.

Again, we're not simply talking about films they procured for this sublabel, as both chat sessions and Richard Gordon confirmed they originally slated for the Collection. If Criterion is suddenly embarrassed or otherwise regretful for adding features like The Blob and Carnival of Souls to their line and now wish to provide a buffer zone between what is usually deemed worthy of their label and what America deems "exploitational", then to me, they have most definitely lowered their own standard for what film excellence is through ignorant and American elitism.
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solaris72
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:03 pm
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#83 Post by solaris72 »

DrewReiber wrote:If Criterion is suddenly embarrassed or otherwise regretful for adding features like The Blob and Carnival of Souls to their line and now wish to provide a buffer zone between what is usually deemed worthy of their label and what America deems "exploitational", then to me, they have most definitely lowered their own standard for what film excellence is through ignorant and American elitism.
Right. Because Americans are obviously the only ones who act elitist towards genre films.
I am not at all concerned with the "ghettoization" of genre films, except in terms of their being consigned to the "ghetto" of not being released. If Criterion is going to start making more obscure genre films available on DVD than they did before, then bravo. I don't care about the popular/critical reputation of the films I like, I care about being able to watch them whenever I want, and show them to people who I think will like them. If some company wants to release a crisp, anamorphic, subtitled transfer of Ikarie XB-1 under the title Invasion of the Commie Space-Men from Space, I'll still buy it happily, because I like the film, and don't care about its popular image. If people are going to be closed minded enough to not watch films because they are marketed as being "cult" or "genre" or "exploitation," too bad for them. They'll be the ones missing out, not me.
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Gordon
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:03 pm

#84 Post by Gordon »

If some company wants to release a crisp, anamorphic, subtitled transfer of Ikarie XB-1 under the title Invasion of the Commie Space-Men from Space, I'll still buy it happily, because I like the film, and don't care about its popular image.
Ha ha ha! I feel the same: I would gladly pay Criterion $40 for an anamorphic 2.35:1 Czech-with-English-subs DVD of Ikairie XB-1.

I don't like putting films in categories of quality and destictions or calling certain films "Art" or "Cult" or "Exploitation", although it is hard to escape those terms. Either I like a film or not, and if I don't, then I don't waste time talking or writing about it.
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ben d banana
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#85 Post by ben d banana »

The whole gripe about this is so absurd. It would seem Criterion have more to release than they are able to under their current set-up. If they start releasing ten dvds a month of even the most high-minded material, they'd saturate the market, diminish the shelf space paid to each release in stores every month and make it well nigh impossible for their consumers to keep up with purchasing their product (and let's face it, it's nerds like us keeping them afloat, not tons of random shoppers picking up the occasional release every month). However, if they create a separate, or sub, label, then they pretty much double their shelf space, have a whole new line for nerds to collect and obsess over and quite potentially open the doors to new consumers. In choosing a new line it only makes sense to look at the market and their holdings. Now if there was a great demand for Soviet film and they had a backlog of such titles, I'm sure that's the new sub-label we'd be debating. Obviously that's not the case so cult films it is. Blue Underground are doing a pretty great job, but don't have the cache w/ retailers of Criterion or the ability to crank out as many titles. Also, cult film fans are perhaps even bigger sticklers for fetishizing extras, details and quality. Yes, it's a calculated business decision but i highly doubt it has anything to do with embarrassment. I really don't see how it can be looked at as anything but a win/win for film fans.
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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:07 pm

#86 Post by Gregory »

ben wrote:let's face it, it's nerds like us keeping them afloat, not tons of random shoppers picking up the occasional release every month.
Is there any evidence of that? It could easily be the case that most of the customer base is made up of people who buy less than half of the titles they release.
ben wrote:However, if they create a separate, or sub, label, then they pretty much double their shelf space, have a whole new line for nerds to collect and obsess over and quite potentially open the doors to new consumers.
Why would retailers and consumers order titles from a sub-company that they would not order as regular Criterions at a parallel price?
ben wrote:Now if there was a great demand for Soviet film and they had a backlog of such titles, I'm sure that's the new sub-label we'd be debating. Obviously that's not the case so cult films it is.

As I've already argued, a separate line of "cult" films is different than, say, a film noir or Soviet cinema series would be because of the history of marginalizing horror and horror-related films from serious critical attention. I further argued that Criterion's image as custodians of a pantheon of great cinema would make it far from a coincidence if they reinforce the wall between cult films and Great Cinema.
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Gregory
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#87 Post by Gregory »

solaris72 wrote:I don't care about the popular/critical reputation of the films I like, I care about being able to watch them whenever I want, and show them to people who I think will like them.
I can respect that, but it seems to me that if horror and horror-related films didn't have such a stigma people would be more open to seriously appreciating them (as opposed to laughing at them or ignoring them based on prejudice), and there would be better studies of them, more retrospectives, more cultural influence, and thus a higher standard for horror films. I believe the reason that such a disproportionately high percentage of horror films are formulaic crap is that so many people are convinced that that's what horror films are and are supposed to be -- silly, formulaic crap. I believe the same was true of the old westerns. When there's a great horror film, it's because a filmmaker aims above the stigma and creates something really interesting and personal in spite of people's exceptations. And even then those films are not treated with anything like the respect or attention they deserve. The only thing keeping some of these films from being totally forgotten is that companies have learned they can sell these films to people, most of whom have only an ironic appreciation for them.
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Tribe
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#88 Post by Tribe »

a separate line of "cult" films is different than, say, a film noir or Soviet cinema series would be because of the history of marginalizing horror and horror-related films from serious critical attention.
I could be wrong, but flm noir was in fact marginalized prior to the sixties. A few French critical articles prior to that doesn't change that. And I'll bet that early Soviet cinema was also marginalized in the West as agit-prop.

Aside from that, if horror films were marginalized its because so much of it was crap. Much of it still is. I love the horror genre, recognizing that so much of it is insubstantial, exploitative, if not idiotic...often no better than high school sex ed films from the fifties and sixties.

There ain't nobody that can tell me that Robot Monster is great, classic cinema.

And I happen to like Robot Monster.

Tribe
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Harold Gervais
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#89 Post by Harold Gervais »

ben d banana wrote:The whole gripe about this is so absurd. Also, cult film fans are perhaps even bigger sticklers for fetishizing extras, details and quality. Yes, it's a calculated business decision but i highly doubt it has anything to do with embarrassment. I really don't see how it can be looked at as anything but a win/win for film fans.
Indeed. Perhaps, just perhaps having the prestige of the Criterion banner will help break down the walls of ignorance that has surrounded cult cinema for so long. And maybe one venture will help feed the other and in the process Criterion becomes a stronger company with greater market influence. Worst thing that happens is that several dozen movies get treated with respect few companies would otherwise bestow on them, Criterion gets some new fans and they have a better bottom line.
I agree this continues to look like a win/win for everyone and I've yet to see a compelling argument that makes the case against this venture or one that maintains the new label undervalues cult films already in the Collection.
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Gregory
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#90 Post by Gregory »

Tribe wrote:I could be wrong, but flm noir was in fact marginalized prior to the sixties. A few French critical articles prior to that doesn't change that.
Yeah, I already conceded that in an earlier post when I said "Film noir, on the other hand, has been an entirely different scenario (at least in recent decades)." But my point was that because film noir is no longer generally been maligned the way horror continues to be, so separate DVD series of the two are different issues, especially in Criterion's case.
if horror films were marginalized its because so much of it was crap.
Very true, and then the marginalization in turn perpetuates the lower standards and formulaic tendencies leading to more crappy films (and a great deal of neglect of the virtues of the great ones) ad infinitum.
--------------------
Because this discussion is getting a bit repetitive, and many of what seem to me the central points in the discussion are being ignored, I'm going to try to shut up on this topic until I see what exactly Criterion is going to do.
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Andre Jurieu
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#91 Post by Andre Jurieu »

Gregory wrote: until I see what exactly Criterion is going to do.
Yeah, I was going to ask about this point. I agree that the horror genre has been marginalized considerably over time, to the point that viewers approach the genre with lowered expectations. I agree that many great horror films have been unfairly dismissed due to these misguided perspectives.

However, what if the films that will appear under the Criterion's Cult label have their DVDs produced in order to have the esteem for the chosen films to grow? What if Criterion includes essays and commentary tracks from noted film scholars who specializes in the genre and are able to convey to the viewer why exactly these films are considered exceptional examples within their genre? What if all the extras included are not devoted to fan-boy drool (ie. Harry Knowles interviews where he tells us how "fucking cool" the movie is), but rather to interviews and documentaries that highlight the importance of these films, explore their themes, display the personal flair involved, examine how they produce fear in the viewer, and what cultural ideals they seek to exploit? What if they approach these titles with historical respect and academic appreciation? What if the DVDs themselves could be used to elevate these marginalized film above the stigma attached to them previously? Would that be acceptable, or would the distinction between labels still be offensive?
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ben d banana
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#92 Post by ben d banana »

first, thanks andre for making a great point.
Gregory wrote:
ben wrote:let's face it, it's nerds like us keeping them afloat, not tons of random shoppers picking up the occasional release every month.
Is there any evidence of that? It could easily be the case that most of the customer base is made up of people who buy less than half of the titles they release.
People who buy less than half of closing in on 300 releases are still pretty regular consumers.
Gregory wrote:
ben wrote:However, if they create a separate, or sub, label, then they pretty much double their shelf space, have a whole new line for nerds to collect and obsess over and quite potentially open the doors to new consumers.
Why would retailers and consumers order titles from a sub-company that they would not order as regular Criterions at a parallel price?
Would a grocery store stock twice as much Pepsi because they made more soda? No, but if you offer them and the consumer Pepsi and Dr. Pepper, well that's a choice. Just like Best Buy, who own Futureshop in Canada are opening both franchises here to give the illusion of choice and a free marketplace. Oh fuck, that's another rant.
fliggil
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#93 Post by fliggil »

I am for any company putting out quality releases of yet to-be-released on DVD. There are so many thousands of films that haven't made it to DVD yet, and many probably will never. If this sub-label means the high quality of Criterion helping to release some of these more obscure titles, I'm all for it. It exposes a new category of purchasers to Criterion (ie. old horror fans, who might just not have heard of Criterion before).
ByMarkClark.com
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#94 Post by ByMarkClark.com »

I spoke with Dick Gordon this weekend about the fate of the CORRIDORS OF BLOOD, HAUNTED STRANGLER, FIRST MAN INTO SPACE and ATOMIC SUBMARINE discs, then confirmed those details with 2 other sources intimate with Criterion.

I was told that the Gordon films, as well as EQUINOX, GOKE: BODYSNATCHER FROM HELL and some other titles, will be released under a new CC imprint that known as "Eclipse," and that we could see its first batch of releases as early as October. However, the details have not yet been finalized. There's still a chance they could pull the plug on Eclipse, and issue these titles under the CC and/or HVE banners instead.

And in a very surprising (to me) turn, I was further informed that the CC is also exploring the possibility of an erotica imprint.
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Buttery Jeb
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#95 Post by Buttery Jeb »

And in a very surprising (to me) turn, I was further informed that the CC is also exploring the possibility of an erotica imprint.
Oh yeah! Jeb loves him some smut.

-BJ
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Cinephrenic
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#96 Post by Cinephrenic »

Some Roman porno. Maybe some deal with Nikkatsu. :lol:

We might see a bunch of Japanese flicks if all this works out. They got tons of cult/horror films they could possibly release. Jigoku perhaps or The Face of Another come to mind.
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Richard
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#97 Post by Richard »

ByMarkClark.com wrote:And in a very surprising (to me) turn, I was further informed that the CC is also exploring the possibility of an erotica imprint.
I am not up to date with this genre (honestly!) and I was wondering what films would appear on a label like that. Is 'Erotica' realy a viable category of cinema with enough films to make it interesting to collect?
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Buttery Jeb
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#98 Post by Buttery Jeb »

I remember reading somewhere that Lars Von Trier runs an "erotic film" production company. Anything to that?

-BJ
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Andre Jurieu
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#99 Post by Andre Jurieu »

ByMarkClark.com wrote: as well as... GOKE: BODYSNATCHER FROM HELL ... will be released under a new CC imprint that known as "Eclipse"
Damn. Didn't expect that one.
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Richard
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#100 Post by Richard »

Buttery Jeb wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Lars Von Trier runs an "erotic film" production company. Anything to that?

-BJ
I remember him once saying in an interview that he was interested in making a "serious cinematic porn movie". :lol:
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