UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

Yes, it's becoming increasingly frustrating to feel like you're gambling when spending so much money to upgrade a disc, especially when you unconditionally support the company, or movie being released with preorders.

In the overall scheme of things, I'm also worried about such a Pandora (no pun intended) box possibly being opened and other movies being treated this way. There have been debates going on about having a certain "laissez-faire" or even a blissfully unaware behavior towards these remasters, but to be fair, like I was after Picnic at Hanging Rock, I'm weary about what would happen if more projects were to adopt such a way of working.

It's likely, however, that the more you spend on a format, and the more advanced the format is, the more you're likely to be stuck between a rock and a hard place, stuff that is not so bad but whose flaws are made more obvious by the advances of technology. But it only works if this view is shared by the majority, but it's not. Most people are likely to be very pleased by all these remasters (yes, even True Lies), enough anyway to vote with their wallets and buy them without waiting too much. It'll send the message : it's fine to do this. And it'll send the message : people saying otherwise are just party-poopers.

And I'm saying this because that's the discussion that happened even on HTF, or on the French equivalent HC-FR (and on Twitter and on Facebook).

So again, Titanic (and Abyss) isn't that bad, it's disappointing because it's an inferior version of a previous work, but ok fine why not, it's no True Lies, but it's a far cry from what it could have and should have been, and there's 0 reason for it for to look better except for the person(s ?) who made it so.

And when you can achieve this by working on a 14 years old 2k resto from a 2K scan, it says a lot about the level of quality achieved.

You’re absolutely right about everything you said. This attitude towards these masters fits together with the unprecedented “allowance” to use everything from old masters for upscales, AI etc. in order to eschew the traditional workflow of scanning, restoring, grading,… due to us, the “consumers” (I detest this term) voting with our wallets. In the case of Cameron, we did so multiple times after first buying / renting the streams to get a glance at everything and finally the discs for our collections. Studios, managers, accountants all obviously take the wrong lessons from it wouldn’t possibly consider that two of the four classic JC films haven’t even been available in HD, are much-loved and obviously sought-after by masses of fans from different generations for way over a decade. I’m sure Disney have taken notice of the tens of thousands of sales they already got from each UHD, all of which are quite likely among rare economic gains against massive losses at the theatrical box office and the diminishing impact of their streaming service. Warner / MGM probably face the same situation when they unleash The Terminator again.

By the way, Warner and David Fincher, who was pretty much exposed to have employed the same AI to “enhance” his Se7en, just delayed the release of the UHD to 2025. I wonder whether some intern over at Warners did their job and took notice of the Cameron backlash not just among pixel-peepers but even as you said, tenia, among the much bigger “Average Joe” 4K crowd (no disrespect) and informed Fincher just in time before the deadline. We can only hope that we’re over the AI game for a while now until Peter Jackson “restores” his early NZ films.

[therewillbeblus]

Yeah, this is why the Cameron April Fool's joke was so good, and why it was ethically disappointing that it was a joke at all

[nicolas]

Svet’s review of I am Cuba (4K): https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/I-Am-Cub ... 57/#Review

His downscaled caps (taken with a grain of salt) from the 4K show a solid encode. Grain looks good wherever NexSpec usually has trouble. Another proof that SDR is easier for them. I’ll pick up a copy.

He mentions that the audio has slight hiss. I hope I interpret it correctly that egregious filtering would have removed this, meaning they may have resisted this time or got a finished mix from Milestone.

[M-A]

Svet’s review of I am Cuba (4K): https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/I-Am-Cub ... 57/#Review

His downscaled caps (taken with a grain of salt) from the 4K show a solid encode. Grain looks good wherever NexSpec usually has trouble. Another proof that SDR is easier for them. I’ll pick up a copy.

He mentions that the audio has slight hiss. I hope I interpret it correctly that egregious filtering would have removed this, meaning they may have resisted this time or got a finished mix from Milestone.

Mosfilm did the work and they are very good when it comes to audio restorations, so I was expecting it to be good. Criterion may have still applied a little filtering on top, but it doesn't seem like they completely ruined it.

[A Tempted Christ]

On a side note, Carlotta in France are releasing In The Realm of the Senses on UHD. If it’s done by FiM it should be a beauty.

If it's sourced from the same restoration that was released on Blu-ray in Taiwan and Australia, I'm sure quite a number of people will be upset with the grading by Eclair compared to Criterion's dated master but it should have a cleaned-up and detailed look to it while having the original grain intact.

[nicolas]

On a side note, Carlotta in France are releasing In The Realm of the Senses on UHD. If it’s done by FiM it should be a beauty.

Important note for readers of this thread: No English subtitles are included. I’ll take this as an opportunity to ask Finch whether you’re open to discussing non-English friendly releases in the thread as well. I mostly didn’t in the past and focused on the English-compatible ones for clarity.

[Finch]

I don't mind. I can add the non-English friendly releases too.

[senseabove]

For those titles with "elevated gamma levels (red category if fixable by player / TV)," how exactly would one go about fixing that? I've seen this mentioned a few times, but haven't seen it detailed. (And/or more specifically—with a Panasonic 820 and a Sony OLED, can it be done?)

[nicolas]

For those titles with "elevated gamma levels (red category if fixable by player / TV)," how exactly would one go about fixing that? I've seen this mentioned a few times, but haven't seen it detailed. (And/or more specifically—with a Panasonic 820 and a Sony OLED, can it be done?)

You can do this in your Panasonic while the disc plays. I’ll do it by skipping to chapter 2 or something like that and pause. Then I’ll open the OPTION menu, go down once into the picture settings and enter on “Luminance Adjustment”. There you can adjust the gamma. I’ll tinker with the amount until everything’s in order. After watching the film, you need to tool them back or simply reset to default in the picture menu, not the “global” settings in the main menu.
I can adjust the gamma on my TV (LG OLED) as well but can’t speak for your model. If it works, it’ll surely be hidden somewhere deep in the picture settings as it is on mine, away from the more casual settings.

[senseabove]

Thanks, nicolas!

[nicolas]

Thanks, nicolas!

My pleasure and feel free to ask if you need anything else!

[AxeYou]

Note: I only considered releases with neither English audio nor English subs. If international releases with English audio and no subs are of interest to readers, let me know.

Thanks for the great list, nic! I’d be interested in releases with English audio but no subs. Any that’s not already on Finch’s list?

Disappointing:
2046 (French, Germany, Japan) - DNR master

Do you know how this compares to any of the Blu-rays?

[dwk]

Blue category:
Heroic Trio + Executioners - both 1.78 AR, masters have some digital manipulation but FiM encodes, sound only 5.1 and no mono (disappointing for die-hard fans)

The Heroic Trio is allegedly missing 30 seconds, but I still haven't found any confirm what, if anything, is actually missing. (The French disc runs 87:28, while the Criterion Channel version, and I assume UHD, runs 88:19)

[nicolas]

Blue category:
Heroic Trio + Executioners - both 1.78 AR, masters have some digital manipulation but FiM encodes, sound only 5.1 and no mono (disappointing for die-hard fans)

The Heroic Trio is allegedly missing 30 seconds, but I still haven't found any confirm what, if anything, is actually missing.

I’ve no idea as well and didn’t bother checking when they mentioned it on the other forum. I have a hard time believing they’d ruin any viewing experience.

Me claiming the Carlotta edition as solid because of the FiM encode and a totally fine presentation over there didn’t fare well with some of the bigger fans of the films. That’s why I added the bracket in the list. I’m absolutely a casual viewer of anything HK-related apart from Wong Kar-wai and got the Carlotta as it’s the cheapest for me to import.

And just while writing this, I remember another positive I forgot earlier. The Carlotta set also has HDR / DV compared to the SDR Criterion. I edited my list accordingly.
I don’t know how long ago the two films were last released before the UHDs but when considering the often troubled home video history HK films had to suffer, both the Carlotta and Criterion appear to me at least solid upgrades with each having individual positives and downsides.

[nicolas]

Note: I only considered releases with neither English audio nor English subs. If international releases with English audio and no subs are of interest to readers, let me know.

Thanks for the great list, nic! I’d be interested in releases with English audio but no subs. Any that’s not already on Finch’s list?

Disappointing:
2046 (French, Germany, Japan) - DNR master

Do you know how this compares to any of the Blu-rays?

I watched 2046 on Blu-ray after Criterion released their World of WKW set. I wasn’t really good at spotting macroblocking back then on my smaller setup but already noticed that it didn’t look good beyond the shortcomings of the master. It looks like a typical Criterion BD that’s loaded with extras in addition to a more lengthy film. The Hand is on there as the bonus film as well as a making-of and more.

I never bothered with the BDs of the other countries and sampled the German and Japanese UHDs once I got them. The Japanese looks a bit better overall but as we’re all generally unhappy with the WKW remasters, putting some of them into the disappointing section feels appropriate. Do you want me to take a look at the BDs included in my 4Ks?

[AxeYou]

Do you want me to take a look at the BDs included in my 4Ks?

Thanks! No need to. Disappointing as they are, I'll probably still pick up one of the 4Ks to supplement Criterion's poor compression.

[foggy eyes]

To add to the recent discussion about the Camerons, I've only caught The Abyss but the list description of '(artificial smoothening of facial textures making actors look unnatural, grain reduction and other changes to make the film look less like a product of its time)' is absolutely dead on. I'm not 100% on that steely colour either. The increase in detail is phenomenal in comparison to prior physical releases but there are some major trade-offs.

[Finch]

Added a link to nicholas's summary above (post # 2284) to the top of the OP.

[vanshady]

Small thing: East of Eden appeared twice in the list

[tenia]

The Johnnie To movies are quite extensively DNRed, and Ritrovata'd to some extent. They might be fine UHDs for such sources, but not in a more definitive manner. I too read about the 30 sec cut, but at the moment, it's still unidentified as to what they might be exactly.

I'm also not fond of some of the Misumi movies in the Jokers set, Zatoichi and La lame diabolique being most certainly degrained too. Same go for As Tears Go By and Days of Being Wild, with Days of Being Wild's BD being more filtered than the Criterion BD, so it might be that the French release as a whole received an additional pass of DNR.

On Infernal Affairs, at least on the BD (but I doubt it's different on the UHD), the 1st movie original track is mixed so louder than on the Criterion disc that it clips. Other movies dont have the issue.

I was under the impression Queen Margot's German UHD has brightness (or is it HDR ?) issues and is brighter than it should be.

As for the Camerons, it might even warrant its own larger thread, I think there is so much to say about it I devoted a whole article on my website, because there are how they've been done, how they look, but also how this freaking cordon sanitaire is nowhere to be seen, just way too many people spread misinformation about Picnic at Hanging Rock but it was people like me who were seen as party-poopers and pixel-peepers, and not people fine with it who were seen as overly permissive.

And for Seven, the issue is that we don't know what was originally planned for AI. As far as I know, it'd have been used like for Mission Cleopatre, ie on select things to be better blended or fixed, not as a blanket tool. If that's indeed the case, then we should actually hope the delay isn't for the worst and go to a blanket use of them. And if not, then no idea as to why a whole year delay.

[nicolas]

The Johnnie To movies are quite extensively DNRed, and Ritrovata'd to some extent. They might be fine UHDs for such sources, but not in a more definitive manner. I too read about the 30 sec cut, but at the moment, it's still unidentified as to what they might be exactly.

I'm also not fond of some of the Misumi movies in the Jokers set, Zatoichi and La lame diabolique being most certainly degrained too. Same go for As Tears Go By and Days of Being Wild, with Days of Being Wild's BD being more filtered than the Criterion BD, so it might be that the French release as a whole received an additional pass of DNR.

On Infernal Affairs, at least on the BD (but I doubt it's different on the UHD), the 1st movie original track is mixed so louder than on the Criterion disc that it clips. Other movies dont have the issue.

I was under the impression Queen Margot's German UHD has brightness (or is it HDR ?) issues and is brighter than it should be.

As for the Camerons, it might even warrant its own larger thread, I think there is so much to say about it I devoted a whole article on my website, because there are how they've been done, how they look, but also how this freaking cordon sanitaire is nowhere to be seen, just way too many people spread misinformation about Picnic at Hanging Rock but it was people like me who were seen as party-poopers and pixel-peepers, and not people fine with it who were seen as overly permissive.

And for Seven, the issue is that we don't know what was originally planned for AI. As far as I know, it'd have been used like for Mission Cleopatre, ie on select things to be better blended or fixed, not as a blanket tool. If that's indeed the case, then we should actually hope the delay isn't for the worst and go to a blanket use of them. And if not, then no idea as to why a whole year delay.

The Misumi films you mentioned are somewhat manipulated but due to the outstanding encode (I presume either David or LSP worked on the set), it doesn’t give the degraining away too much compared to other encoders and their set-and-forget approach which then bends and shapes the grain around anything moving in the frame, like The Pianist and many Paramount encodes.
In general, the Japanese like to use DNR and / or de- and regraining too much with their remasters. This also affected some of the Kurosawa UHDs but when looking at some the very old previous editions, these restorations are still revelatory.

Queen Margot appeared normal to me when I watched it in 4K DV last year and apart from minor highlight issues, I think it looks good and better than the Cohen BD. I’ll give the UHD and BD another look and update my post if I see something I missed.

Regarding Se7en. With the unusually long delay, I like to believe that we dodged a bullet here. I can’t remember any major studio restoration / re-release being delayed that long after an initial release date was set and pre-orders were opened (in Se7en’s case internationally at least). It’d still be a mighty long delay for them when it comes to re-doing the entirety of it, let alone only certain parts. It appears logical to me that they have a fully restored, untinkered version before putting it into the AI in the final steps of the process to “restore” what Fincher believed normal restoration couldn’t achieve.

[nicolas]

This is the most comprehensive post I compiled since the Curzon Wim Wenders set, which still contains the worst BDs I’ve ever seen.
This time, it affects one of the worst UHDs I’ve ever seen, Kino Lorber's FEAR AND DESIRE. As with the above Wenders set, there may be worse transfers on both formats but the „worst“ I’m talking about refers to the assembly of a BD / UHD - the least amount of care, love and knowledge. Curzon dropped the ball on the BD format, KL on UHD.

And ironically, KL’s complete f*ck up affects the one filmmaker known for his utter perfectionism who famously said: „Either you care, or you don't. There's no in-between. And if you care, then go all of the way.“ Or maybe it was Kubrick’s ghost himself that „guided“ KL’s encoder to ruin his first feature as he unequivocally hated it throughout his lifetime. I think the quote nails this situation best. Had Kubrick or maybe even Leon Vitali been involved, Fear and Desire wouldn’t have looked like this.

In short, the new Fear and Desire edition is a disaster of an UHD with its crown jewel, the premiere version unseen since 1952, looking worse than two of the bonus features on this edition and worse than the BD version. In fact, the edited version that’s been available all these years looks slightly better than the premiere version, being encoded at almost twice the size on the BD-100 but still utterly horrible with severe macroblocking. Seldom has a BD-100 been this wasted in general. The film seldom looks like something that was sourced from an OCN, not due to lacking detail but simply inappropriate encoding.

The short films are also of varying quality. The one color film, The Seafarers also looks worse on UHD than the BD. There are significant differences in the color grade as seen in my screenshots and the 4K encoding is also laughably bad with the file sizes varying a mere 2 GB. The file size of the film on the 2012 BD is bigger than the UHD’s. Besides, the UHD has glaring chroma issues in HDR10 as seen in the caps. The BD also looks more detailed. A shame that the transfer on the 2012 BD isn’t better.

Day of the Fight and Flying Padre are both in black and white and may be the best-looking films in this cursed set. Again, ironically, Day of the Fight has so little image detail that the difference in 4K isn’t given to begin with and therefore the „stratospheric bitrate“ (quote DVDBeaver) encoding is meaningless. Flying Padre has shots that are sourced from the OCN. These look for the most part very good and appropriately detailed in 4K and a little less so on BD. Exactly how this ENTIRE set should have looked like.

I don’t think I need to mention that this set is a disgrace for the hardcore Kubrick fans this set is made for and a 10/10 display of embarrassment for Kino Lorber, THE quantity over quality label that goes all the way in restoring these classics only to ruin hard work at the most important step in the journey towards a finished release in order to save a few meaningless bucks.

Can’t wait for the KLI to reply that I should be grateful to have gotten a UHD in the first place. No thanks, I’d rather have nothing than garbage like this for my hard-earned money.

For all the films and formats, BDInfo report, graph, standalone caps and an attempt at comparisons. The 2012 BD is also included. Please note that it wasn’t always possible to perfectly matching frames due to differences in the framing, edits and obviously the two cuts.

-> See for yourself in the screenshot comparisons below. Select "Canvas: screen width" and "Fit into canvas" in the menu on the bottom of Slowpoke Pics until I solve the windowboxing issue <-

Comparison of 2012 BD (edited cut only) vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/T45h4TJc
Two BD / UHD caps of the Premiere cut that didn’t fit into the comparison: https://slow.pics/c/scJjjglq
BDInfo code and graphs of all cuts and all the discs: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=44

The Seafarers 2012 BD vs. 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/AQhszlGn
Day of the Fight 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/lpojSvb5
Flying Padre 2024 BD vs. UHD: https://slow.pics/c/LeAVI6xv
BDInfo code and graph of all the short films: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=45

[MichaelB]

A tiny quibble - it’s Flying Padre, not Flying Parade.

[nicolas]

A tiny quibble - it’s Flying Padre, not Flying Parade.

You’re right, thanks for pointing this out! I’ll correct this asap.

[Yakushima]

LE CHAT QUI FUME's 4K UHD of Rene Laloux' Gandahar is an absolute stunner. It is not English-friendly though.