criterionforum.org

What's the shinoda film title?

Answered on the last page directly following the first time you asked.

dda1996a wrote:It'd also called Silence and all I know is that there is a MoC DVD release.

What is the title of the Shinoda film, though?

Really Quiet (1971)

Discussion of The Departed moved to its own thread.

mfunk9786 wrote:What is the title of the Shinoda film, though?

It's actually Chinmoku. Just so you know

So long as we're being pedantic, it's actually 沈黙

I'm unfamiliar with the Shinoda film as well as Endo's novel. This is probably not where I should start with this material but I've learned reading the source material after seeing the film adaptation is far more satisfactory than the other way around. Besides this film looks fantastic.

Shinoda's film is probably his best and if it weren't for Criterion likely releasing this soon I'd beg everyone to get the MOC release today. I can't imagine Scorsese's film comes even close.

Considered apart from the source material, Shinoda's Silence is good. However as an adaptation of that source material, I found it lacking as it omitted what I see as the most important part of the novel:

Spoiler

When the fumie speaks to Rodrigues instructing him to trample upon him

Frankly, I don't see the appeal of Shinoda's film. It is cumbersome, sluggish and the main actor is awful. I'm pretty sure Scorsese's version will eclipse it without difficulty.

I thought Shinoda's film was a very good adaptation of the novel, although it is hampered by some of the performances being lacking, which is probably not Shinoda's fault. I anticipate and hope Scorsese's film will be better, partly because there are unlikely to be issues with the acting, although I wonder whether shooting in Taiwan, rather than Japan, will have any adverse effect.

I also think Scorsese's film is likely to be a more faithful adaptation of the novel, mainly because of Endo's Catholicism fitting in more with Scorsese's background, although the Shinoda film was pretty faithful, apart from the significant change pointed out by jwd5275 above and the fact that, in Shinoda's version

Spoiler

Rodrigues is tortured himself as well as witnessing the torture of Japanese Christians, which subtly alters the message that the Japanese magistrate has learned from his experience with Ferreira that the Jesuits are prepared for personal martyrdom, and perhaps even welcome it, but find that witnessing the pain and death of others, which they are told they can stop by apostatising, is a more direct challenge to their theology and morality. Simply put, can they decide to martyr others rather than undergoing martyrdom themselves, or is that ultimately a form of selfish self-aggrandisement? I suspect this will be the heart of Scorsese's version, which is why the material seems so perfect for him.

Sadly I have yet to see any Shinoda, but how good is the novel?
If this is as good as Scorsese's Last Temptation this will be amongst this year's best

I think the novel is tremendous and it's generally regarded as being Endo's best work. It's quite grim as you would expect. I'm not sure whether it would be better to see the Scorsese film first if you haven't already read the book or seen the Shinoda film: it probably would be but the book and previous film are well worth reading and seeing afterwards.

Here is an article about Endo from The Guardian written by the novelist Caryl Phillips, which provides some interesting information and analysis.

As my experience with Lolita can attest (watched the Irons first, then the great Kubrick Adaptation and finally the masterpiece that is the novel) I'll probably watch the films first and then novel. I'm rather unfamiliar with Endo, any of his other novels worth a read?

I'm not sure as I've only read Silence, which was after seeing the Shinoda film. However, it was good enough to lead me to suspect that his other work would be worth looking into at some point.

Endo's The Sea and Poison is very good. Kei Kumai made it into a film (which I have not seen yet). Samurai deals with similar issues as Silence, only from an opposite direction with the Japanese travelling to the Christian world.

My issue with the Shinoda film is that the changes AidanKing and I mentioned above turn it into simply a story about political and religious oppression. And while that is definitely present in the novel, as it is present in all the Endo that I have read, this is not what makes Silence a great novel. It is the novel's meditation on the nature of religious faith (specifically Endo's own Christian faith) and it's relationship to the system of ethics established by that faith.

Spoiler

Through the vision of the talking fumie, Endo makes it clear that Rodrigues is a better Christian by apostosizing.

I highly recommend reading the novel, even before the film. It is a real quick read.

Really? From my experience watching the film first almost always turns out better for both the film and novel.

Last night I got a chance to see a screening for this. Scorsese spoke after the film. Since this hasn't been seen by many yet I will avoid mentioning any story details. But will say a few things about the film in general. It is a beautifully shot film. Very scenic and painterly in it's shot compositions and lighting. Rodrigo Prieto did outstanding work with this one. He is one of the best DPs out there. The cast was amazing. Adam Driver was ridiculously believable. I was as impressed with the Japanese cast members, especially Issei Ogata who played Inquisitor Inoue.

It will be interesting to see how this will be received by the public. Or as Scorsese said during the Q&A, "when it gets out into secular American audience," when ask by an audience member if the investors "got it," which he said they did. I can't imagine a successful box office though.

One of the interesting tidbits Scorsese talked about during the Q&A was there were several trios of actors attached to the project through the years but one group in particular, which he said was connected for a long time (he wouldn't mention names but we know who he was refering to, Garcia Bernal, Lewis and Del Toro) fell out because they couldn't do it because they couldn't relate. They had ministers in there families that they didn't like or trust, but Scorsese said by the time they were ready to make the film they would be too old even if they wanted to play the parts.

If you do not have Endo's book, and especially if you have to wait until January for the movie like me, it is available from the Book Depository for just over $5 US.

EDIT-Price has jumped back up on that edition, though the movie cover version is also available for $7.57 US.

This article from The Daily Beast offers a pretty well-reasoned critique of the film's portrayal of its Japanese characters. My knee-jerk response is to say that Scorsese is rarely uncritical of his protagonists (I had this disagreement about Wolf of Wall Street with a few of my friends, in that they saw endorsement where I saw a pretty scathing, though certainly not absolute, condemnation), but I think the author makes a pretty good case here for the problematic interplay between the film's white and Asian characters. I also like that she still finds things to admire in the film (cinematography, Ogata's performance), which is not always the case in more ideologically-driven pieces like this, and finds room to roll in discussion of the novel and Shinoda's earlier adaptation (both of which she much prefers to the Scorsese).

Offhand, not even slightly impressed by the analytical powers of Ms Yamato's Daily Beast piece (and find her rather supercilious tone annoying)-- but will withhold final judgment until I actually see the film.

Perhaps she is a bit condescending in her tone, but I do not think it is unreasonable to criticize a white American filmmaker for making a movie that relies on the physical suffering of its Japanese characters to portray the spiritual suffering of its white ones. I am not yet able to see the film either, but I do not see the problem with criticizing Scorsese on this point (especially when she sees Endo and Shinoda as having addressed this problem more successfully).

Whether that critique is misplaced or not remains (for me at least) to be seen, but given the current climate surrounding art that involves some degree of cultural appropriation, such a conversation is likely inevitable. Maybe Yamato is guilty of her own kind of cultural chauvinism, and I do not doubt she has an agenda herself, but I also think the inherently problematic process of bringing a novel as socially/culturally tangled as Endo's to the screen deserves close scrutiny.

Having read Endo (and seen Shinoda), my recollection is that Endo's primary focus IS, in fact, on the "suffering of the white ones" (because they are the missionaries -- and it is their crisis of faith that is central) -- not that the suffering of the Japanese Christians is ignored, just that they aren't the central characters.

Cronenfly wrote:If you do not have Endo's book, and especially if you have to wait until January for the movie like me, it is available from the Book Depository for just over $5 US.

EDIT-Price has jumped back up on that edition, though the movie cover version is also available for $7.57 US.

Got it for $4.84 shipped the day you posted - thanks.