141 Children of Paradise

[Fortisquince]

I bought my copy of the COP Blu-Ray during the flash sale two weeks ago and, yeah, it doesn't look so good. It's very murky at times. I thought the second part of the film looked much weaker than the first.

I missed the restoration when it played here in Chicago, but here are my questions: It seems that reaction to the restoration that played in theaters was very positive. What is the difference between the copies of the film that played in theaters and the copies that were licensed to Criterion? Was the version of the film that played in theaters an actual film based on the digital restoration or something like a blu-ray disc? If it was the latter then why is there such a difference between what played in theaters and what was given to Criterion? I would think that there wouldn't be a real difference between a digital copy of the restoration shown in theaters and one licensed to Criterion, but I really don't know. If anyone could explain the situation in the most basic terms I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Kauno]

I, like many others, found this over smooth. Is there any difference between Criterion and Second Sight? Are they practically the same?

[MichaelB]

I, like many others, found this over smooth. Is there any difference between Criterion and Second Sight? Are they practically the same?

They came from the same master, and the problems seem to have originated in France. So the answer is probably yes.

[rdanduran]

I'm not able to say anything more about this as it seems there's a hig hoohaa launch at the Cin. Fr. for the Pathe Blu Ray Wednsday. And comments like this are apparently not friendly to reputations.

What is Cin. Fr. ?
Anyways, if there is enough protest about this release, can there be a recall and a fixed Blu in the next few months?

[Jeff]

I'm not able to say anything more about this as it seems there's a hig hoohaa launch at the Cin. Fr. for the Pathe Blu Ray Wednsday. And comments like this are apparently not friendly to reputations.

What is Cin. Fr. ?
Anyways, if there is enough protest about this release, can there be a recall and a fixed Blu in the next few months?

Cinémathèque Française. Not a chance.

[peerpee]

Pathé submitted their work to a restoration awards earlier this year with a detailed explanation of what they did.

I think the key line is: "the damaged parts were processed by other machines that are piloted by computer graphics designers."

----------------------------------

Les Enfants du Paradis (1945)
Pathe Distribution | France
• Restoration or Preservation Work by: L'Immagine Ritrovata - Eclair - LE Diapason
Paris under Louis Philippe, Boulevard du Crime. Love and death played out among the actors and buffoons. From here, the love shared by the beautiful Garance and the mime Jean-Baptiste Debureau is ever countered by a fickle destiny. Around them, other fates are decided - that of the dandy and murderer Lacenaire, of Nathalie who marries Jean-Baptiste but can't forget her rival, of Frederick whose one true love is the theater.

Reason for Submission:

"Les enfants du paradis" (Children of Paradise) is one of the most important film in Pathe's Catalogue. Pathe is the historical producer of the film. This is why we decided to restore a movie in black and white in 4K for the first time. "Les enfants du paradis" is also one of the most important film in French cinema history.

Further Information

1. Describe the element/s used for resoration, stating gauge and nature and specfic problems associated with them: The first and main element used for restoration was the original nitrate negative camera, which was in a particularly bad state with badly damaged parts and traces of mould on all the reels of film. In particular, this negative contained shots on safety duplicate negative. The 35 mm original nitrate print was used as a reference for color-grading. The other elements used were two nitrate fine grain positives and a safety fine grain positive. As for the image, the original nitrate sound negative presented a major difficulty in that it contained irregular and loud background noise. The restoration was then conducted by using the combined French fine grain positive. The background noise was even louder but more regular.

2. State the original aspect ratio and format: The original aspect ratio is 1.37.

3. Outline the restored aspect ratio and format: The restored aspect ratio is identical to the original one, i.e. 1.37.

4. Explain where the work was carried out for each title (including labs and facility houses) and broken down where there are multiple titles in an entry: The scanning of the original negative camera and of the first fine grain positive took place at the laboratory L'immagine Ritrovata (Bologna, Italy). The restoration of the image and the scanning of a section of the second fine grain positive was carried out by the laboratory Eclair in France. The laboratory LE Diapason handled the sound restoration. The complete restoration took six months.

5. What methodology was used?: First of all, different tests were performed in order to choose the best digital resolution (2K, 3K and 4K). Scanning and restoration in 4K was finally chosen. The negatives had to be repaired due to perforations and splices among other things. The image was cleaned with an ultrasound washing machine to remove dust. Then it was scanned with an Arriscan Archive. The comparative shooting script was used to determine the best element to use for each shot to be restored. The image was first corrected on a semi-automatic machine to remove dust, small scratches… then the damaged parts were processed by other machines that are piloted by computer graphics designers. The image was cut into 6 parts to focus on manual corrections. Each reel was subsequently checked at the laboratory once or twice a week for validation. With regards to the sound it was first processed by an automatic Cedar machine for correction and then it was corrected by hand. Lastly, on weekly basis for two months a sound and image screening took place in a theater to check on a big screen that no fault had been overseen. Color grading was applied very carefully to the whole image with the aid of a well-known colorist.

6. What preservation elements have been generated and where will they be stored?: The 4K restored files have been stored on LTO and on a 35mm preservation negative print stored at Eclair (in cold storage at 4oC).

[triodelover]

I think the key line is: "the damaged parts were processed by other machines that are piloted by computer graphics designers."

Apparently without a license to fly the damn things - or enough hours logged in the trainer.

[tenia]

I'll be damned if they win any restoration award for this one.
I screened the French BD and it is truly horrendous, with, on top of this, the 2nd era having a clear greenish tint like on old B&W DVDs.
Nothing on the disc shows the level of details you should be expecting from a 4K scan + restoration, but the worst is that, most of times, there are "close to no details at all". I've read on Chris review that some fabrics now looks like vinyl with virtually no details at all. I thought he was over-reacting but unfortunately, it is the exact impression I had.

It's incredibly bad.

[_shadow_]

The pre-wreckstoration frame grabs in the Creative Cow article linked earlier in this thread seem to show that the grain structure and detail were retained in the original scan, and then discarded during subsequent processing:

http://library.creativecow.net/articles ... ore-lg.jpg

http://library.creativecow.net/articles ... ter-lg.jpg

[David M.]

^ If I recall rightly, that scene is from one that was heavily damaged by mold.

The only way I know of to solve that involves heavy temporal filtering. In other words, the process that removes the mold is probably also going to scrub out a lot of, or all of the grain, as part of the bargain. Re-graining afterwards would be a good idea.

[peerpee]

Nick I am able to say I have reason to believe the overprocessing, DVNR and even the digital filtering out of objects like hands and filmed objects occurred at the 4k scan stage at Ritrovate.

Bologna have never done anything like that before, they really know what they're doing. I thought all fingers were pointing at digital work later in Paris?

[David M.]

Nick I am able to say I have reason to believe the overprocessing, DVNR and even the digital filtering out of objects like hands and filmed objects occurred at the 4k scan stage at Ritrovate.

No, definitely not. That wouldn't be a good basis for further restoration adjustments. And in any case, there's a restoration demo on both BD releases that show the before and after states.

[peerpee]

Some damning facts are massively outweighing others here:

1.) Why do the old DVDs and the "before" HD grabs contain what we know to be original grain? and why is the finished Blu-ray so devoid of it?

2.) The "before" HD grabs disprove the theory that massive grain management was applied at the scanning stage.

3.) The faulty black level throughout is an enormous error on its own.

4.) If, as they say, they did tests at 2K, 3K, and 4K – why did they settle on 4K scanning if the available resolution of the finished work looks sub 1080p and does not resemble any other good Blu-ray of a B&W film that any of us know.

5.) I too have asked around and nobody wants to talk about it on the record.

6.) I've heard from a good source that it absolutely was degrained and regrained.

--

The only thing I've heard in Pathé's favour so far is a different good source who says that they had very good reasons for doing it as they did.

Having said that, none of this adds up, and no-one seems to like or is convinced by the finished result. It's the first Criterion Blu-ray I've simply not been able to understand (and, in their favour, one of the very few Blu-rays that Criterion appear to have had nothing to do with). If no-one's going to come forward and explain what really happened with the restoration, then it's going to go down as a huge question mark and that's a shame.

[tenia]

Just want to remind that Pathé policy after the botch release of Le samourai has been to say "yeah, it's non sense, we did a wonderful job on the restoration, everything is perfect", when nobody was attacking the restoration but the BD encoding.
They have been dodgy in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if they are again only trying to cover themselves.
They released so far 4 catalog movies with big restoration and sale potential :

- The Leopard, in the best release worldwide (except for the colors discussion)
- Apocalypse Now, in a technically inferior release because the lack of seamless branching for the 2 cuts (due to the addition of the French dub), and without splitting the cuts on 2 discs, the video bitrate is extremely low, with the problems such low bitrates usually creates
- Le samourai : complete botch with their new "aquarelle" encoding
- Les enfants du paradis, where the 4K restoration is nowhere to be seen when playing the disc

However, it would be very interesting to understand where all these issues have been created for Children, because the "Before - After" frames below are quite scary.

[Finch]

I just re-purchased the 2002 Crit DVD on Amazon US for £16 (including shipping to Scotland). I'd advise others who sold their original copy prior to the BD release to do so as well before all remaining copies go for exorbitant prices. Now wish I hadn't sold my copy of Le Samourai. #-o

[tenia]

We now have the ghastly prospect of a Pathe/Gaumont merger. I have already commented elsewhere here on how completely dreadful the two new Gaumont Godard ttitle transfers are on BD - Bande a part and la Chinoise. They are both DNRed to death. Only Bande looks even vaguely good, simply because the master for it is a outstanding quality viz black level and fine detail and failed to resist the rape of their overzealous DVNR.

Honestly, the latest Gaumont releases are not the first ones to be underwhelming. The 2 Beckers are far from perfect (especially due to black levels issues), and both Un taxi pour Tobrouk and Cent mille dollars au soleil are quite underwhelming (I'm quite sure they used their old 2005 master for these ones, but you also have a greenish tint on Un taxi, more obvious now that we have the Olive disc to compare with).

Gaumont always said they are degraining as part as their process. Why not, if done carefully. They produced discs like Il generale Della Rovere which is probably their best disc, with a truly magnificient PQ. But since about a year, I don't know what they're doing. Maybe they had a heavy hand on the latest releases, or they changed their teams, but something is going more wrong on every new release. I hope they will stop this downslide, as they were really doing a wonderful job so far.

[David M.]

How then do you explain the vehewment denials of the Lab Eclair techs and the PAthe Restoration guy to my friend in Paris (who have done superb work on things like French Can can and Demoiselles de Rochefort, etc, etc) who are swearing on stacks of bibles that AT NO STAGE was degraining and regraining done on the scan or encode.

Simple: because no degraining was done on the scan or the encode.

In-encoder grain reduction isn't too common. It's a very wasteful and imprecise way of doing degraining if you really want/need to. I don't know what they used for Les Enfants, but whatever degraining is there, it's not done in the encoder.

It was done inbetween those two stages, probably at the end of the restoration.

[feihong]

If the degraining is done at the end of the restoration, it still means that the restoration is ruined, doesn't it?


What has happened in France, where they suddenly view film grain as the enemy? It used to be quite the opposite.

[greggster59]

The French copy no one...and no one copies the French!

Ooolala.

[Gregory]

I'd say the opposite. I did an A/B comparison of the first several minutes of the DVD and Blu on my 104" screen and Epson 8350 LCD projector, and while I was bracing myself to find the Blu inferior, I actually found the detail present in the DVD greatly inferior due to its poorer resolution and compression. As many have been saying, the Blu is softer than we'd like and insufficiently film-like, but the DVD looked blurrier and far, far less film-like to me when projected at that size.

[triodelover]

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the audio track. The sound on the 2002 DVD is...well, murky. The 2012 BD is crisp and clear. My wife remarked that you could teach a French class with it. Even for someone whose French doesn't extend far beyond menus and wine lists, the audio track on the Blu was more involving and the clearer diction and inflection gave more emotional cues than the 2002 DVD. If you know the film and even if you don't speak French, I think you'll rely a little less on the subs than before. And that's worth something.

[Drucker]

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the audio track. The sound on the 2002 DVD is...well, murky. The 2012 BD is crisp and clear. My wife remarked that you could teach a French class with it. Even for someone whose French doesn't extend far beyond menus and wine lists, the audio track on the Blu was more involving and the clearer diction and inflection gave more emotional cues than the 2002 DVD. If you know the film and even if you don't speak French, I think you'll rely a little less on the subs than before. And that's worth something.

Also I haven't seen mentioned (and haven't had the chance to review them myself) is the increased amount of extras on the blu ray. Any word on the quality of these by anyone here?

[The Narrator Returns]

Personally, I found the new features to be very interesting, so I might issue a recommendation just on those features (and the package design, which I really like). However, I didn't think the transfer was thaaaaaat bad, so what do I know?

[Kauno]

so what do I know?

Interesting question. I personally know that yellow is my colour and my cat is really sweet. And I know I like opening windows.

[rdanduran]

How does the PQ compare to such botched BD titles in the past, such as Predator Ultimate Edition or Plastic Patton?