Re: 217 Tokyo Story
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:43 pm
HerrSchreck - that's exactly what I was trying to say. I just couldn't do so as eloquently.
Grand Illusion wrote:Just saw this for the first time.
I'm wondering how a film so well blocked, framed, and wonderfully poetic in the wide shots, can be so horribly framed and artificially performed in the mediums.
If you had read or even listened to some of the commentary about the film, perhaps you would realize how precise Ozu is about editing. It may be confusing for a first time Western viewer, who is gotten used to Close-ups, over-the shoulder, medium and full shots to encounter Ozu's use of mis-en-scene. Ozu uses same techniques but in different manners, that is the reason perhaps you think it “gives the illusion of looking into the camera”. Most of the time Ozu breaks down the rule of editing and 180 line, but should one reject a film because of one’s inability to coup with new/different visions and ideas?Why does Ozu allow his actors in wide angles to perform as they would in reality (i.e. not always delivering lines staring into the other actor's eyes), yet in the mediums dialogue is only delivered staring at one point straight ahead off-camera or staring directly at the other actor? This effect is made even worse by the center framing, which gives the illusion of looking into the camera. You'll lose count if you try numbering the shots that begin with a profile, then have the character turn his neck and deliver his lines center frame.
This one really hurt, calling Norkio (Setsuko Hara) “ the shit-eating grin” and then a line later giving naturalism and Cassavetes as an excuse for it. What hurt is an ass like you disliking films for pure reasons of tastes and not being able to put forward an argument other than your poisonous opinions.The shit-eating grin that Noriko, the widow, hid behind also came across as such a forced indicator that it really hurts her thread of the film. I'm not expecting Cassavetes naturalism here, but a lot of the choices here were unintuitive and fake.
Well, I’m glad you think the story was told well “especially when it's being told from far away”, I may just have a solution for your problem with Ozu, get a binocular and every time there are medium and close-up, flip the binocular the other way around and you will find it a masterpiece this time ](*,Overall, the story was well told, especially when it's being told from far away. And the relationships between the characters, if not the characters themselves, were poignant. But a lot of the performances and abundance of terrible medium shots really kept this from being a masterpiece in my eyes.
This is clearly not what I said. Go back and reread, so I don't have to repeat myself.ozukarodzi wrote:Grand wants a film that is nothing but eye-popping visual wide shots
I never once said the breaking the 180 rule was a bother. The only rule of editing he's really breaking is the fact that his wide shots don't match tonally to his mediums, I'm speaking specifically about performance. His actors move and speak differently in the wides than they do in the mediums. The actions are thus incongruous, and the characters don't have a solid spine for their performances.Most of the time Ozu breaks down the rule of editing and 180 line, but should one reject a film because of one’s inability to coup with new/different visions and ideas?
Your reading comprehension is probably clouded by your kneejerk anger. Go back and reread what I wrote. I wasn't offering Cassavetes as anything more than an example of what I was not expecting.This one really hurt, calling Norkio (Setsuko Hara) “ the shit-eating grin” and then a line later giving naturalism and Cassavetes as an excuse for it.
I spoke coherently in terms of technique. Your objective tastes are just better than mine.What hurt is an ass like you disliking films for pure reasons of tastes and not being able to put forward an argument other than your poisonous opinions.
The problem is not that Ozu uses medium shots. It's that he uses them poorly. The performance, staging, framing, and composition is radically worse than his wide shots. I've elaborated why I believe they are not only worse, but incompatible with the takes from wide angles.Well, I’m glad you think the story was told well “especially when it's being told from far away”, I may just have a solution for your problem with Ozu, get a binocular and every time there are medium and close-up, flip the binocular the other way around and you will find it a masterpiece this time ](*,
I'm so glad that you have set me (and countless other Ozu fans) straight. Now that I know his technique is so poor I have a whole new perspective on his work. It's amazing that you alone were able to recognize this indisputable fact where so many others were blind to it.Grand Illusion wrote:The problem is not that Ozu uses medium shots. It's that he uses them poorly. The performance, staging, framing, and composition is radically worse than his wide shots. I've elaborated why I believe they are not only worse, but incompatible with the takes from wide angles.
Emphasis mine.Michael Kerpan wrote:I'm so glad that you have set me (and countless other Ozu fans) straight. Now that I know his technique is so poor I have a whole new perspective on his work. It's amazing that you alone were able to recognize this indisputable fact where so many others were blind to it.Grand Illusion wrote:The problem is not that Ozu uses medium shots. It's that he uses them poorly. The performance, staging, framing, and composition is radically worse than his wide shots. I've elaborated why I believe they are not only worse, but incompatible with the takes from wide angles.
I read all your posts on this topic, several times.Grand Illusion wrote: I have elaborated why, and if someone starts saying I have a "grand illusion" about cinema but didn't bother to read my original post, I don't feel like restating my argument.
I'm wondering how a film so well blocked, framed, and wonderfully poetic in the wide shots, can be so horribly framed and artificially performed in the mediums.
The shit-eating grin that Noriko, the widow, hid behind also came across as such a forced indicator that it really hurts her thread of the film. I'm not expecting Cassavetes naturalism here, but a lot of the choices here were unintuitive and fake.
In Tokyo Story, again, further hurt by the center framing and rigid blocking, the performances were wooden and predictable. I shouldn't be able to predict the exact mark an actor is going to turn and deliver his lines. This drains the spontaneity of a performance.
Only in that last block to you call attention to the fact that yours is simply an opinion, and come anywhere near to qualifying your statements with "this is related to my experience only, and others will feel different". Using those kinds of qualifiers is always a good idea.. it's something I've tried to hew to when posting strong negative feelings about a film that many people love (see Contempt, which blew up anyway). It's not a guarantee that folks wont blow up at you but it's something you can at least point to when they get hot themselves. Your tone of almost talking down to Ozu, as though the man was waddling and fumbling for the basics of set-ups which you yourself fully grasp, and qualifying almost none of your individual sentences as opinion-- and indeed writing them as severest fact-- is going to get you into trouble.To aspire to show life itself, and then do so in the most rigid, formal, and lifeless way, is counterintuitive. I recently re-watched Kore-eda's Nobody Knows, which shows much of everyday life, but the skillful interpretations by the actors bring you into the drudgery rather than pushing you away.
I'm not asking for a strict code of Western filmmaking. 50's Hollywood is pretty banal to me, to be honest. I love life in the little details. I even enjoyed most of Tokyo Story for the detachment in the wides and the overall tale. But if the director is going to cut close, going to bring me into the life of his players, I am absolutely asking for believable performances. Line delivery beyond a low-budget horror flick.
Again, this is all personal, but I wouldn't give a director a pass if his pacing was awful or his visuals were all ugly, so I don't see why I should be asked the same for performance directing. If you can buy an actor having only two points on screen that he can look at while reciting lines, then this film obviously increases its power immensely. Personally, I cannot, and I'll reserve the term "masterpiece" for those works that combine all facets of storytelling and filmmaking.
I'm going to try to keep my reply focused on Ozu's film rather than forum etiquette.HerrSchreck wrote:Grand I, you did absolutely make sweeping factual pronouncements about Ozu's working style and the characters/actors in the film, as though completely divorced from your own personal experience. You're making Expert Pronouncements with a tone that-- frankly-- reads like you're a contemporary peer of Ozu's working down the hall from him at Shochiku.. and you're taking time out from your present assignment to speak about Ozu's latest film. You certainly aren't speaking like a dude on a forum board.
So in once case, I'm only hating on the film for "pure reasons of tastes" and, in the other case, I'm providing "Expert Pronouncements" and being too objective in my criticism. Do you see the disparity? I'd presume that the only option is, of course, not to criticize such a beloved film at all.ozukarodzi wrote:What hurt is an ass like you disliking films for pure reasons of tastes and not being able to put forward an argument other than your poisonous opinions.
I seem to recall the Contempt thing started out as just a passionate discussion. These things can degenerate quickly, so let's please keep it polite.HerrSchreck wrote:This is nowhere near the Contempt thread-- it's just a passionate discussion.
It might also be worth mentioning that he said "Films are meant to be made, not seen."Michael Kerpan wrote:Ozu was a fanatic cinephile -- and studied Hollywood films of the 20s and 30s on a frame by frame basis -- and spent lots of time watching more recent films
The performances themselves are not ‘different’ in the straight-to-camera shots, and you can find several examples where, in the wide shots, characters turn their heads to speak in exactly the way you describe. This movement is more noticeable and unnerving in the close-ups because, as you say, it breaks a cinematic ‘rule’ by having the character address the camera. When Ozu shows an entire conversation with these sorts of shots, the effect is especially unnerving and artificial because the cuts between shots seem to prolong the gaps between the lines of dialogue – it’s as though the actors have to wait for the camera to turn round before saying their piece, and when that piece consists of a couple of perfunctory words and a weak smile, the effect can be frustrating. It certainly was for me when I first saw the film. In answer to your question though, I think it is the unusual (at least it is unusual to most Western eyes) shooting style that makes the performances seem different, not the actors themselves. (And Chishu Ryu does more acting with his adam’s apple in this film than most actors do with their arms, legs and face – watch him when he looks down at his dying wife, or in the penultimate shot of him back at home.)Grand Illusion wrote:Does the performance/blocking in the mediums match the performance/blocking in the wides? All I'm asking is if they are exactly the same. Specifically, the way the characters always rigidly turn their heads 90 degrees and speak staring straight ahead? If not, is this, by definition, incongruous (whether or not you like the film or this effect)?
So so true. Very keen observation. That bob of his adams apple at the end is one of the most delicately moving strokes of subtlety in the cinema.Sloper wrote:Chishu Ryu does more acting with his adam’s apple in this film than most actors do with their arms, legs and face – watch him when he looks down at his dying wife, or in the penultimate shot of him back at home.
I only see this as a problem when one looks for realism in Ozu's films, which a lot of people do. But Ozu's films are not very realistic or naturalistic. Intimate, obsessed with mundane details, prosaic, yes, but never very realistic. On the contrary, his films are very stylized, and this very restricted manner of acting that you see so much in Ozu's films—particularly in a film like Tokyo Story, where Ozu's style has reached the height of its refinement—is very much in keeping with his editing style, cinematographic style, dialogue, and even the story itself. Other than in subject matter, Ozu's films are actually about as far removed from naturalistic as you can get. I think the confusion around this comes from the fact that Ozu's films seem to be borne from an attention to detail in the way that people behave and their motivations that exceeds even Neorealist filmmaking, but these details are then brought into intense focus by stripping out everything that doesn't need to be there, including a more realistic acting style.Grand Illusion wrote:The next is the line delivery. In the mediums, the characters only deliver the lines at two marks, either staring at a point straight ahead off camera or looking the other character in the eyes. Now, I may be ignorant of the customs of Japan, but I would think there are more than just these two ways for a character to react.
Once again, I wouldn't argue otherwise, but I didn't exactly know what context that quote was in. I was just mentioning it with the hope that someone could provide some history behind it.HerrSchreck wrote:Many MANY directors never watch their own films again after settling on a final cut. Their primary interest is in the experience of making them, and once that's done it's over for them. And god bless dudes like Victor Erice who believe that their films no longer belong to them when complete... they belong to the public, or the thread of time.
I would like to make a public apology for calling you an ass, and I’m sorry If I have hurt your feeling. But never the less, the reason behinde my statements came after you called Norkio (Setsuko Hara) “ the shit-eating grin”, I would like to hear you apologize to all the fans of Ozu and Setsuko Hara, after all, what have Setsuko Hara done to you to show such contempt?Grand Illusion wrote:First, I'd like to begin with this allegation levied at me earlier:
ozukarodzi wrote:What hurt is an ass like you disliking films for pure reasons of tastes and not being able to put forward an argument other than your poisonous opinions.
Or, if you prefer...Urban Dictionary wrote:(1) n. a very wide and, to the outside observer, stupid looking grin, usually showing smugness, self-satisfaction, or inner humor.
(2) n. Someone donning a forced smile in an uncomfortable, embarassing, or compromising situation.
Urban Dictionary wrote:The grin on someone's face when they are trying not to smile but can't stop so they look like a total shithead.
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