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Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 am
by TheGodfather
thanks for the answers guys. might be getting it next month.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:06 pm
by Michael Kerpan
Just got the blu-ray version -- and watched it (almost) right away. In terms of sheer visual beauty, I can't imagine a more phenomenal looking black and white film (or a better presentation).
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:23 pm
by LQ
Although I didn't have the luxury of watching the film on Blu-Ray, I can only imagine, wistfully. This is one of the most bewitching, gorgeous-looking movies I've ever encountered! I was bowled over by the content too, not just the form. There are films that beautifully impress the slippery process of remembering onscreen but I've never seen anything as perfect as Last Year At Marienbad in that respect...even more so than Hiroshima mon amour (which I feel the need to re-visit after watching LYAM).
I absolutely love this movie.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:23 pm
by swo17
Play the game from the movie on your computer!
P.S. If you can actually beat your computer, I will buy you a car.
Offer not valid in places with roads.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:28 pm
by Murdoch
I like how the computer apologizes for winning. Sarcastic bastard, this thing's going straight to the curb!
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:42 pm
by mteller
You owe me a car. I'm in my office right now, there are no roads in here.
It's actually pretty easy once you know the secret.
You need to always leave your opponent with pairs of sets of 4, 2, and 1.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:48 pm
by swo17
And you need to let the computer go first.
Um, I'll get right back to you about that car...
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:47 pm
by mteller
swo17 wrote:And you need to let the computer go first.
Um, I'll get right back to you about that car...
Actually, letting the computer go first is how I win. It beats me when I go first :-k
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:02 pm
by swo17
Exactly. When the game starts, if you pair off all the sets of 4, 2, and 1, there are no remainders. The first player's move will always disrupt this balance. From a state of imbalance, there is always a move that will restore balance. And from a state of balance, it is always impossible to make a move that maintains balance. Hence, if both players know the strategy and the second player makes no mistakes, the second player will always win. The only way for the first player to win is if the second player doesn't know the strategy and makes the mistake of leaving the first player an opportunity to restore balance.
There's likely some symbolism for the movie in all of that!
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:24 pm
by montgomery
I still can't figure it out. It's making me sad.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:18 pm
by nsps
I can't figure it out either. I think I don't understand the phrase…
…"pairs of sets of 4, 2, and 1." If I still have a row of 5 and 7, I can't make both of those conform to the standard, as I understand it.
This particular version of Nim is a
"distinctly unfair game," so you can't win if you go first against an in-the-know opponent.
Unless, of course, you're playing M, because he always wins.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:11 pm
by Ahti
nsps wrote:I can't figure it out either. I think I don't understand the phrase…
…"pairs of sets of 4, 2, and 1." If I still have a row of 5 and 7, I can't make both of those conform to the standard, as I understand it.
Remember that you can take more than one at the same time, and that a set of pairs can be 0
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:25 pm
by swo17
Here is the strategy in as plain and clear English as I can muster:
1. You need to let the computer go first.
2. Now you need to restate all the numbers in each row as combinations of 1, 2, and 4, like so (it might help to get out a pen and paper at this point):
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 2 + 1
4 = 4
5 = 4 + 1
6 = 4 + 2
7 = 4 + 2 + 1
Congratulations, you now know how to convert numbers to binary.
3. Now you need to try to match pairs of 4, 2, and 1. For example, if one row has 5 sticks and another has 7, the 4 and the 1 match between the two rows (you can cross them out), leaving only a set of 2 that has no match.
4. After you have matched all pairs, how many unmatched 4s, 2s, or 1s are left over? If there are none, there is no way you can win the game against the computer. Otherwise, for your move, you need to remove enough sticks so that there are no unmatched sticks left over.
5. You just keep using this strategy until such a move would leave no rows with 2 sticks or more. At this point, instead of caring about pairs, you want to leave your opponent with an odd number of rows with 1 stick.
Note: If you are not playing against a computer, or a person who might as well be a computer, you should probably still be able to win even going first. All you need to do is wait for your opponent to make the mistake of leaving you an unmatched set. Once you get rid of this remainder, the game is yours.
Sort of complicated to master at first, but once you get the hang of it, you should be able to beat most human opponents with ease.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:28 pm
by nsps
Thanks, swo17! I figured it out and was actually just editing my post to try to explain it, but you did so much more effectively. Cheers.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:54 pm
by montgomery
Thanks! I get it. Sort of. I mean, I won. But my brain can only just barely handle this. This is more math than I've ever done in my life. Far more abstruse than the film.
But let me ask: does it matter what the set-up for the game is? For instance, if the game had 5 rows of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 matches instead of 1, 3, 5, and 7? Do you have to calculate a different set of pairs? And if so, is this something that a man who can just barely do long division could muster? Because I want to introduce this game to people and then beat them.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:09 pm
by swo17
It doesn't matter how many sticks you start with in each row. The strategy is the same (though the more you're dealing with, the more math you will have to do...) The only thing that might change if you're working with something other than the 1-3-5-7 configuration is that the second player might not necessarily start out with the advantage. But as long as you are playing against someone who has never heard of the game and would never think of the strategy, you should be able to beat them whether you're first or second to go. (In fact, people will naturally assume at first that it's just a trick of who goes first. You will put this notion to rest when you beat them twice in a row each way.)
All you need to do is leave your opponent with no unmatched sets at the first possible opportunity, and from that point on, as long as you do not mess up, you are guaranteed to win. It is actually kind of funny to watch people deliberate over every possible move when you know from very early on in the game that they are doomed to lose.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:47 am
by Mr Sausage
swo17 wrote:It doesn't matter how many sticks you start with in each row. The strategy is the same (though the more you're dealing with, the more math you will have to do...) The only thing that might change if you're working with something other than the 1-3-5-7 configuration is that the second player might not necessarily start out with the advantage. But as long as you are playing against someone who has never heard of the game and would never think of the strategy, you should be able to beat them whether you're first or second to go. (In fact, people will naturally assume at first that it's just a trick of who goes first. You will put this notion to rest when you beat them twice in a row each way.)
All you need to do is leave your opponent with no unmatched sets at the first possible opportunity, and from that point on, as long as you do not mess up, you are guaranteed to win. It is actually kind of funny to watch people deliberate over every possible move when you know from very early on in the game that they are doomed to lose.
Ok, so when you're removing the unmatched sticks, does it matter where you take them from?
Nothing makes me feel more stupid and ineffectual than math.
EDIT: well I just won a game, thank god.
EDIT again:
I find I can actually match them up visually very quickly, as opposed to doing it the mathematical way, which takes me forever. So if you can spatially isolate things more easily than you can calculate, try it.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:10 am
by swo17
Mr_sausage wrote:Ok, so when you're removing the unmatched sticks, does it matter where you take them from?
As you may have already figured out for yourself, no.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:55 am
by HerrSchreck
Pearls Before Swine is a much more invigorating version of nim for computers.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:06 am
by Mr Sausage
Well, despite following the trick to a T, the computer still beats me 95% of the time. Very discouraging, as I cannot for the life of me figure out how I'm screwing up. The computer does a move and
suddenly there's no unmatched pairs any longer
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:31 am
by fiddlesticks
I have no spatial or math (or life) skills, and therefore I lose 100% of the time. Ah well.
Doesn't this deserve its own Navel Gazing thread by now? Or rather, doesn't LYAM deserve a discussion thread that focuses on the film?
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:46 am
by swo17
A lot of this discussion may not be specifically germane to the film, though, as I have subtly alluded earlier, and as is suggested by the prominent placement of the game in the film, I might argue that the mechanics of the game are intrinsically tied to the form and fabric of the film itself. And therefore, a greater understanding of the game can lend itself toward a greater understanding of the film.
On just a very basic level, you might think of the patrons of the hotel as matchsticks (as they often act as little more than this), and you might also consider X and A to be actively engaged in a game of Nim, A starting off with what she thinks is "balance" (just like there is balance in the game at first in the pairs of 4s, 2s, and 1s) but X constantly disturbing this. And as much as A might try to reason and deduct her way through to some logical conclusion that might end in her favor, she is aloof to the fact that she is doomed from the start.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:29 pm
by Dr. Geek
What a delightfully hypnotic film. Those interior shots, the movement of the cameras . . . I've heard the film described as being "nearly impenetrable," but I felt the cues dictating what was memory and what was presently occurring were obvious but well-crafted. Furthermore, I didn't feel the plot was cryptic at all. I interpreted the film as a story of a woman's rape and her blocking out all the memories that led up to it and possibly following it. It makes sense to me, anyway. All those people remaining still. They can't continue doing what they are doing if the memory of those events remains frozen, hidden away in the recesses of the mind.
I enjoyed it as a haunting horror story, but found that it was not as puzzling as it has been made out to be.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:50 pm
by jsteffe
Dr. Geek wrote:What a delightfully hypnotic film. Those interior shots, the movement of the cameras . . . I've heard the film described as being "nearly impenetrable," but I felt the cues dictating what was memory and what was presently occurring were obvious but well-crafted. Furthermore, I didn't feel the plot was cryptic at all. I interpreted the film as a story of a woman's rape and her blocking out all the memories that led up to it and possibly following it. It makes sense to me, anyway. All those people remaining still. They can't continue doing what they are doing if the memory of those events remains frozen, hidden away in the recesses of the mind.
I enjoyed it as a haunting horror story, but found that it was not as puzzling as it has been made out to be.
Your interpretation is justified--if you read the "cine-novel" by Alain Robbe-Grillet, the rape is more explicit. However, I think Robbe-Grillet and Resnais deliberately leave room for other interpretations as well. The BFI book on MARIENBAD by Jean-Louis Leutrat mentions a Breton legend in which Death returns for a woman after she has asked him to wait for a year--I think that's a compelling notion, as is the idea that the man is trying to persuade the woman by hypnosis.
But you're right, the film is not all that "difficult" in the usual sense if you watch it with an open mind.
Re: 478 Last Year at Marienbad
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:23 pm
by Tribe
Dr. Geek wrote: I interpreted the film as a story of a woman's rape and her blocking out all the memories that led up to it and possibly following it.
I'm curious how you got around to the movie being the story of a rape. I'm not saying you're necessarily incorrect (it's never been important to me what the movie is about or whether it "means" anything...it's simply a beautiful and enthralling film to watch, as a result I've never tried to figure out for myself what is exactly happening), but I was wondering what you led you to believe that.