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David M. wrote:Fantastic news. 3 of the best TVs this year: the Panasonic VT60, ZT60, and Samsung F8500 plasmas - all accept and display 50hz signals without the need for a conversion player.

I can't guarantee they will show the picture without a bit of stutter, but for 24->25fps film transfers, that shouldnt be too noticeable.

Thanks David, that's really terrific, and hopefully becomes standard practice. From what you are saying I assume they can actually display at 50hz or some multiple of, and not convert to multiples of 48? When you say stutter, you mean a stutter inherit in the limited framerate of a 25fps source, or something different? Thanks again for the information!

No, I mean the panel refresh may be at 60hz so high motion content (50hz TV shows shot on video) will stutter badly.

25fps film looked okay.

David M. wrote:No, I mean the panel refresh may be at 60hz so high motion content (50hz TV shows shot on video) will stutter badly.

25fps film looked okay.

David, this reminds of an issue I have never been able to resolve satisfactorily and always assumed it was the refresh rate causing it. I have several BDs of operas and concerts that are 1080i/60 shot on video that when I play them back in scenes of fast motion leave the impression not of a stutter, but a jerky motion on part of let's say the singer running across the stage or lifting an arm quickly (maybe that is the same you mean by stutter).
Now I have an Oppo player and a projector that both can handle 50hz and 60hz, and I have played around with any setting I could find, but have never been able to completely resolve it - although it only occurs very rarely.
Are some of these problems simply inherent to any display no matter what, or should I continue twiddling with the set-ups?

Where in the world are you, and what player are you using, and what TV?

I should have been clearer David, but I doubt the rest of the board is particularly interested in my specific set-up and problems, so I sent you a PM. Thanks!

Jonathan S wrote:Are Blu-rays far more prone to skipping than DVDs? I now have several in my small collection which do this, apparently due to just one or two tiny surface marks (which won't wipe off) that were already on the discs when I bought them new - presumably caused during manufacture or packaging (I'm almost obsessively careful with discs myself).

The problem always seems to be marks near the outer edge of discs - when I presume error correction is most difficult. However, I've rarely had any DVDs that had a problem with such minor blemishes and my understanding was that BDs were more resilient. Discs that are absolutely pristine play fine.

My player is an early model (Sony BDP-S300) though it has been used for probably less than 100 hours. Perhaps more recent models have better error correction? However, it seems to have no problem dealing with DVDs with similar or worse marks.

Since writing the above, and encouraged by the replies which suggested the Sony was probably at fault, or had poor error correction, I've acquired a brand new Panasonic player... and now the skipping and freezing from these tiny marks (on the same bought-new discs) is, if anything, even worse! This repeated experience would seem to rule out renting, buying secondhand or accepting any BD less than 100% pristine. It also deters me from importing any BDs as the cost and/or hassle of returning all the problem discs would be too great (and the return window has usually expired anyway). In short, my enthusiasm for blu-ray is severely undermined.

Is everyone else using incredibly expensive players with fabulous error correction? Does everyone else always receive perfect discs? Including DVDs and CDs I'd say at least 10% of the discs I buy new & sealed have (usually tiny) playing surface scratches or scuffs, but with earlier formats the players nearly always sailed through them. Not since the days of vinyl LPs - which taught me to be obsessively careful with my own handling of discs - have I had this recurrent type of problem.

@Jonathan: BD shouldn't be more prone to disc read errors than DVD. A tiny scuff shouldn't be an issue.

David, this reminds of an issue I have never been able to resolve satisfactorily and always assumed it was the refresh rate causing it. I have several BDs of operas and concerts that are 1080i/60 shot on video that when I play them back in scenes of fast motion leave the impression not of a stutter, but a jerky motion on part of let's say the singer running across the stage or lifting an arm quickly (maybe that is the same you mean by stutter).
Now I have an Oppo player and a projector that both can handle 50hz and 60hz, and I have played around with any setting I could find, but have never been able to completely resolve it - although it only occurs very rarely.
Are some of these problems simply inherent to any display no matter what, or should I continue twiddling with the set-ups?

After reading your PM: do you have the TV standard set correctly in the Oppo menu? Make sure it's set to NTSC or Multi-system since you're in the US.

Jonathan S wrote:Is everyone else using incredibly expensive players with fabulous error correction? Does everyone else always receive perfect discs? Including DVDs and CDs I'd say at least 10% of the discs I buy new & sealed have (usually tiny) playing surface scratches or scuffs, but with earlier formats the players nearly always sailed through them. Not since the days of vinyl LPs - which taught me to be obsessively careful with my own handling of discs - have I had this recurrent type of problem.

Nope. Just sounds like you've been unlucky with a few discs. I think I've only had one BD which hasn't worked and that looked to be in mint condition.

In my experience, Sony makes the best players as far as not being deterred by disc scratches/defects, i.e. my Sony will often play discs just fine that my other players struggle with.

Thanks for the replies so far. swo: yes, the ancient Sony - which I initially thought might be the problem - did cope a bit better than the new Panasonic, though there's not much in it. It sounds like you've had quite a few problem discs, though perhaps you aren't referring only to BDs and maybe out of a huge sample?

I must be unlucky indeed - three out of less than 20 BDs have failed (in part), all the problem ones being not quite pristine. It must be well over five years since it last happened with a new DVD and I still buy over 100 a year.

Yes, I was referring to both DVDs and BDs. 3 out of 20 does seem excessive.

Well 3 out of 20 isn't any sort of fair sample size.

Jonathan S wrote:Thanks for the replies so far. swo: yes, the ancient Sony - which I initially thought might be the problem - did cope a bit better than the new Panasonic, though there's not much in it. It sounds like you've had quite a few problem discs, though perhaps you aren't referring only to BDs and maybe out of a huge sample?

I must be unlucky indeed - three out of less than 20 BDs have failed (in part), all the problem ones being not quite pristine. It must be well over five years since it last happened with a new DVD and I still buy over 100 a year.

Do you have a computer you could play the discs on using a slot drive? The tray-type transports found on most DVD (and CD) players are usually the weakest link in the playback chain. They are less stable, exacerbate jitter, get misaligned and can create all sorts of problems. Even inexpensive slot drives are better performers. If a disc skips or hangs up in the slot drive, you can be fairly certain it's the disc. If not, you've got a couple of players with problems.

The laser used for BDs is less durable and easier to to get misaligned, too. If the Sony is a couple of years old or more, I'd have that checked. The new Panny might have similar problems that snuck by QA/QC I had a BD.DVD drive for a couple of years and the BD laser just died. Before it gave up the ghost, it was balky with a few discs. DVDs played fine.

Daines is correct. It's a small sample size and the next 80 could play fine. But it's still irritating as hell.

Thanks, triode. Unfortunately, I don't have anything else with a blu-ray drive. The Sony (though given to me in 2007) was scarcely used until recently, so I doubt it has worn out. I'm certain the problem is disc-related, since every pristine disc so far has played perfectly and every one with the tiniest mark has not. (There was actually a fourth problem disc but as it was a rental - better condition than most - I discounted it.) I even managed to predict roughly the times the freeze-ups would occur from the location of the marks on the discs! But what concerns me is the inability of both players to cope with what seems to me (and I have pretty exacting standards) very minor disc damage.

Who manufactured the discs? I've had a little bit worse luck than average with Olive, for instance.

Two are Milestone (the same Mary Pickford set, widely discussed on Nitrateville without any reports of problems), the other Universal. I think the rental was Fox. The players are Region B-locked, though the Milestone set is region-free.

Jonathan, I'm sure you've already tried this, but have you cleaned the discs? I use a solution of a grease-cutting agent (mild dishwashing liquid or Simple Green, for example) in distilled water at a 1:100 ratio. A lot of blemishes on BDs/DVDs/CDs are oil-based so this might help.

David M. wrote:Fantastic news. 3 of the best TVs this year: the Panasonic VT60, ZT60, and Samsung F8500 plasmas - all accept and display 50hz signals without the need for a conversion player

Thanks again David, I realised ultimately, that my budget allows for more of the second tier of display, like the Panasonic ST60. I have read your review of this particular model, and it seems like it would similarly support 50hz signals. Would you know if this is unique to the European model, or if this is a world standard?

I would imagine it would. The ST60 is a fricking great display too. Don't count on me being right about the 50hz support on the US version though. Can you test one in a store?

I'm going to try, but an initial internet search has me concerned. I'll report back if I have a definitive answer. In a broader sense is it possible you could please elucidate me as to what is going on with refresh rates? Last I had checked, you were looking for something with a multiple of 24 for film reproduction and the same might apply to 25 fps sources. It seems like it is not uncommon however for the TV to apply some kind of pulldown to make it fit into different refresh rate even today and that this might even be preferred. Is this a minor concern? If my player can output convert and output a 60hz or 50hz signal, should I just ignore this as a required TV feature? Perhaps my concerns are mislaid.

Not sure what you're askign 100%, but the output refresh rate should always match or be a multiple of the input rate to avoid judder.

A lot of LCDs are still 60hz centric.

Thanks, I think I just had a moment of self doubt there, but your confirmation is helpful. I was a little thrown off by the discussion of judder (introduced by not matching the input rate and having to convert) vs. flicker (introduced by a low refresh rate of the dsplay). I haven't looked at TVs in a long time, so wanted to make sure my basic approach was still valid.

Edit: I should add that refresh rates are a well kept secret for some reason in both reviews and manufacturer pages, so I am absolving myself from all blame! This would seem to me to be a basic and clear-cut function of a display, and I see no reason why it is not clearly advertised. I have to give CNET credit for noting these values in an appropriately obvious manner.

David M. wrote:No, I mean the panel refresh may be at 60hz so high motion content (50hz TV shows shot on video) will stutter badly.

25fps film looked okay.

Also, I think I interpreted your previously response incorrectly. So these displays (VT60, ZT60) will accept 50hz signals, but will not display them at a multiple of the frame rate (100hz), unlike the corresponding EU model presumably.

Also have read about some issues with flicker at the 96hz settings (not certain if it is screen size related or even limited to a particular model) for these new sets. Any info available about that?

Here's a question: If I want to rip DVDs to an external hard drive and play back the movies directly from there, what file format should I convert them to? And what (free, PC) software should I use?

(So far I've only been doing straight copies from DVDs to DVD-r.)