The Jacques Rivette Collection

[Ribs]

Best news of the year!
But, just to nitpick, refering to Duelle as Duelle (une quarantine) while not using Noroît (une vengeance) is just weird.
It started with the french dvd release that billed them as "Duelle (une quarantine) + Noroît", and it sticked using the subtitle in the case of Duelle but not with Noroît.
The films are titled just Duelle and Noroît. If you want to use the subtitle then it should be Duelle (une quarantine) and Noroît (une vengeance).

FWIW, the listing on the Arrow site has been updated to now refer to Duelle and Noroit both with their subtitle.

[cinemartin]

The first reports I heard of the 25fps was from someone who attended a screening in Canada, if I remember correctly. The projectionist said that his 16mm projector could only run 24, so the film would run slow. When I saw the film in NY, it ran at normal speed and I remember realizing that fact. I can't quite remember if I just thought the museum's projector could handle 25fps or was specifically told that it could. But now that I think about it, why would he shoot in 25? Is there a practical purpose? Was that the norm for 16mm films back then or something?

[jsteffe]

I read that Out 1 was initially intended (but rejected) as a television serial, but I'm not sure whether that is correct. That would explain the 25fps, since some other films made for European television (such as Berlin Alexanderplatz) were shot 25fps.

[cinemartin]

It wasn't intended as a serial to begin with. According to Rivette, once he was editing he realized that the length of the film would be too unwieldy for any theatrical distribution. He then broke it into 8 episodes hoping to get it on tv.

[jsteffe]

If that is the case, then I can't think of a good explanation as to why the film would be shot for projection at 25fps--assuming that information is correct.

[Adam]

I read that Out 1 was initially intended (but rejected) as a television serial, but I'm not sure whether that is correct. That would explain the 25fps, since some other films made for European television (such as Berlin Alexanderplatz) were shot 25fps.

Yes, Whereas in the United States, film was shot at 24 fps, and in Europe it was shot at 25fps. I thought that was the standard. I don't think it was just a question of European films intended for TV; I thought all European films were shot at 25fps. But maybe I misunderstood?

In the US electricity runs at 60 Hz, and video (b&w) ran at 30 fps. Then color video came in, and not being precise in my technical understanding, was set to run at 29.97 fps so that it and the b&w signal could be transmitted together, as people had both kinds of TVs.

Europe, running electricity at 50 Hz, had its video at 25 fps, so film to video conversions there were a straights 1:1 affair at 25fps, as opposed to the 3:2 pull-down standard for telecines in the US.

Also in my understanding, yes, Out 1 was shot as a television serial. I did the initial arrangement of its first screening in Los Angeles (which ended up happening at the UCLA Film & Television Archive), and I thought I read at that time that it actually ran as a TV serial as well (not just shot as one).
Also that "Noli me Tangere" is not really part of the title for the long version. There are OUT 1 and OUT: Spectre.

[David M.]

Yes, Whereas in the United States, film was shot at 24 fps, and in Europe it was shot at 25fps. I thought that was the standard. I don't think it was just a question of European films intended for TV; I thought all European films were shot at 25fps. But maybe I misunderstood?

Theatrical movies at 24fps worldwide. 25fps only used if TV is the destination.

[kidc85]

It wasn't intended as a serial to begin with. According to Rivette, once he was editing he realized that the length of the film would be too unwieldy for any theatrical distribution. He then broke it into 8 episodes hoping to get it on tv.

Do you have a source for this? If it was shot at 25 fps that's pretty conclusive evidence for it always being planned as a TV serial isn't it?

[cinemartin]

I remember reading that but now I can't seem to find it. The closest I can come is Rivette speaking in an interview from April 1973 - "It is 16mm, but it was made with the big screen in mind: it has a meaning on the big screen which it wouldn't have on the small screen. Even visually it is composed of elements implying a massive image - a monumentality is putting it too grandly but that's it nevertheless."

In the end, it seems strange that the film was ultimately released as a theatrical film, Out 1: Spectre, and there have never been any reports of screenings having technical difficulties because of it being 25fps.

[jsteffe]

I just checked The Films of Jacques Rivette by Mary M. Wiles, and on p.53 it mentions Rivette's "initial conception of the film that was to have been broadcast on French national television as an 8-part serial." Wiles continues, "Sadly, the film was not shown on television at the time it was made because the ORTF refused to purchase it." That doesn't tell us definitively whether OUT 1 was actually shot at 25fps, though.

As for the 24fps/25fps question, there is no technical difficulty in projecting the film at a slower speed. It will just run longer and the audio will have a slightly lower pitch. I'm sure that when Fassbinder's BERLIN ALEXANDERPLATZ was shown theatrically, it was always (or maybe almost always) projected at 24fps rather than 25fps.

[RossyG]

...and it's also quite difficult to tell the difference. Some people notice the pitch differences in the sound, but most of us in Europe were brought up watching films at 25fps on TV and weren't even aware of the speed up.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

To be honest, the region free bluray will play just fine in my PS3, so the DVD's will probably never even get removed from the box. Can't wait for November 30th!

Interested to see how fast the 3,000 copies move off the shelves. It sounds like the book, by itself, would be a must have for university libraries.

[RossyG]

Ah, but if it really is 25fps then it'll be the Blu-Rays that are at the wrong speed.

[dfzp]

For whatever it's worth, I can't find any single mention of OUT 1 as a tv series in any french magazine from the period (1971-74) that I own; Rivette likens it to silent serials.
Anyway, it was shot in 16mm at 25fps. However, Spectre was definitely intented for theatrical release, and it was blown up to 35mm (the longer version has only existed in 16mm), I'm assuming at 24fps.
By the way, the german dvd release fits Spectre in a single disc despite the film's length (4h20min), hence a pretty low bitrate. Does anyone know how will Arrow deal with it? Splitting it in two discs will mirror the original release (with the intermission acting kinda as a structural conceit). The restored 35mm prints had the intermission in a different spot as the one intended by Rivette.

[EddieLarkin]

David M., who has surely been hired to author the discs, will get it onto one I imagine. The second Shoah disc he did for Eureka runs nearly 5 hours, and looks amazing.

[MichaelB]

David M is indeed authoring this one.

[nolanoe]

I do recall reading a text where Rivette said that OUT 1 was meant as a serial to be shown at cinemas, but that was probably after TV stations declined it. And I am not a super reliable source, obviously. It would be curious, but I doubt we'll find out.

In other questions, the BIG one for me is whether or not the three-days-worth of material shot for the 70s version of MARIE ET JULIEN will be included in some form or another. It was shot for a few days, before Rivette - seemingly inexplicably - abandoned it. Which is a tragedy in parts, as I'd have loved to see a 70s version of it (although the 2000s one is a masterpiece in its own right). To my knowledge, there are no photos of that shoot released, or material.

[dfzp]

Well, that's an easy answer. William Lubtchansky has said that the lab lost that material, so it doesn't exist anymore.

[nolanoe]

Well, shit.
However, has it ever been expanded upon WHY Rivette had a "nervous breakdown"? It seems a bit untypical for him to abandon a film - I mean, he went through the hell that was Merry-Go-Round.

[dfzp]

Hélène Frappat tried to find the Marie et Julien material but couldn't even find stills from the shooting. The whole thing is just mysterious (I guess it fits well for Rivette). Claire Denis was the assistant director and kept the (very incomplete) script you can find in Frappat's book "Trois films fantômes de Jacques Rivette".
There's also talk about Marguerite Duras being an option to direct the film after Rivette's departure, since all the cast and crew were already there, about Rivette trying to make the film after the nervous breakdown with Maurice Pialat in the role of Julien (substituting Albert Finney) while keeping Leslie Caron as Marie, and then, when Pialat dropped out of the project, Rivette himself as Julien, but I don't know how much truth there is in all that.

[nolanoe]

Hélène Frappat tried to find the Marie et Julien material but couldn't even find stills from the shooting. The whole thing is just mysterious (I guess it fits well for Rivette). Claire Denis was the assistant director and kept the (very incomplete) script you can find in Frappat's book "Trois films fantômes de Jacques Rivette".

Very Rivettian indeed - but yes, I am happy with the 2000s-film. It's FANTASTIC!!

And I wanted to have this book for a long time now. My french is a bit spotty, though. But I figure I'll look for it next time my bank account is in the black numbers again.

[martin]

However, has it ever been expanded upon WHY Rivette had a "nervous breakdown"? It seems a bit untypical for him to abandon a film - I mean, he went through the hell that was Merry-Go-Round.

According to Chr. Braad Thomsen's book on the French New Wave Kameraet som pen (1994), Rivette's own explanation for his breakdown was the tight shooting schedule. All four films had to be shot in succession with only 4 or 5 weeks in between for editing. Thomsen's source is a Rivette interview in Filmbulletin no. 169 (1989). The breakdown happened during the Marie & Julien shoot, which was the 3rd of the three films to be shot, although it was supposed to be the first in the tetralogy.

[zedz]

Hélène Frappat tried to find the Marie et Julien material but couldn't even find stills from the shooting. The whole thing is just mysterious (I guess it fits well for Rivette). Claire Denis was the assistant director and kept the (very incomplete) script you can find in Frappat's book "Trois films fantômes de Jacques Rivette".

Which reminds me that Denis' film on Rivette (Jacques Rivette: Le veilleur) would have been a fantastic inclusion on this or any other Rivette release. Maybe next time!

[nolanoe]

However, has it ever been expanded upon WHY Rivette had a "nervous breakdown"? It seems a bit untypical for him to abandon a film - I mean, he went through the hell that was Merry-Go-Round.

According to Chr. Braad Thomsen's book on the French New Wave Kameraet som pen (1994), Rivette's own explanation for his breakdown was the tight shooting schedule. All four films had to be shot in succession with only 4 or 5 weeks in between for editing. Thomsen's source is a Rivette interview in Filmbulletin no. 169 (1989). The breakdown happened during the Marie & Julien shoot, which was the 3rd of the three films to be shot, although it was supposed to be the first in the tetralogy.

Ah, thank you.
That is interesting. It does seem so, then, as if Noroit already could potentially have suffered from this. I do love the film, but in comparison to Duelle, it's apparent how much, much more "loose" the structure of the plot is. It's the most "avant grade" of his work I have seen.

Which also reminds me that the real casualty of this departure is the musical he wanted to make. Haut Bas Fragile is possibly the weakest out of all his films (I couldn't even finish it - and that says a lot with my unfiltered love for this man's work), and a 70s musical could not only have been amazing, but surely would have felt less "stilted" than HBF turned out to be.

[Michael Kerpan]

I wouldn't say HBF is perfect -- but I think it has more than enough wonderful moments to justify its existence.