Page 6 of 13
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:11 am
by movielocke
I had an additional thought today concerning lightsabers, and a new reason to really like the film, they handled the lightsabers so perfectly in the film!
In the prequel trilogy, lightsaber combat is an elaborate cirque du soleil ballet of showstopping choreographic wizardy. The jedi had numerous different forms of saber combat and many of them practiced at them all their lives.
In the original trilogy this is not the case. Obiwan stalls for time, and verbally spars with Vader rather than actually battling with him. Yoda does not train Luke in saber combat and even advises him to eschew his Saber in the cave. And it is only in eschewing his saber in the cave like lower levels of the Death Star Throne Room that Luke eventually wins. When Luke fights Vader in Empire, he is relatively ineffective, a novice and out of his depth. He has clearly practiced more in Jedi, but his style is still a high swinging immature and often adolescent approach, but he builds more evasions into his tactics, overall, he tries to avoid getting into long series of blade exchanges with Vader. He only shocks and overcomes Vader when rage and the darkside suddenly fuel him in a bludgeony and clumsy but effective surprise attack.
All the old forms of saber combat die with the final practicioners at the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke is untrained in it and was never that great. Kylo Ren reflects this perfectly in The Force Awakens. His style echoes Luke's from Return of the Jedi, particularly the bludgeoning and clumsy qualities of his movement. His skillset is broken and at best half formed--like Luke's--and he clearly hasn't encountered anyone else wielding a saber since he fled his training. Rey's time with a saber is similar, you see her adapt some of her staff skills to the saber (I'm expecting her to build a darth maul type of weapon in episode 8 or 9) but ultimately she also reminds one of Luke in her style and usage of the saber.
So I think it's great they didn't try to shoe horn in prequel style saber ballet into these films, instead choosing a deliberate evolution from what one would expect to grow out of Luke's incomplete training and lack of of a lifetime of practice.
Additionally, Luke was something of a mechanical genius (like Anakin), he repaired the droids, ran all the farm equipment, was an intuitive natural pilot and without instruction was able to build a perfect lightsaber. Rey seems to share many of these engineer's abilities and intuitions.
But Ren, once again, is broken and half formed, reflecting his training, and probably his feelings of inadequecy. His saber is clearly of his own construction and it does not function normally throughout the film, it's overlarge, a bludgeon, rather than a finesse weapon, and it sparks and spits and seems on the verge of malfunction throughout the film. even the now iconic shape, I suspect, was a malfunction bug that Ren decided to turn into a feature.
So it then makes sense that Ren is not very good at saber combat, having never fought someone before, anymore than Rey is. He's also not that great with the force, similar in skillset to Luke at the End of Empire Strikes Back. Oh the parlor trick of stopping a blaster bolt in midair is absolutely stunning, he does a wicked force push multiple times, his fall back choice, but he struggles with technique and usage equally often as he uses the force effectively. I love that he is inconsistent like Luke was! it's such a different take on a star wars villain. (and sets up well parallel lightside and darkside training sequences for Ren and Rey in episode 8)
And my final note reflects back to my earlier comment about the original trilogy providing material that become successful Payoffs (not rip offs) in this film. My favorite moment in the film is the lightsaber, in the snow, at the end of the film, and how that scene resolves, a moment that has so much resonance because of its connection to the earlier films. Just brilliant, it works so very very well.
I just wish I knew how and by whom a lightsaber was recovered that went tumbling towards a gas giant when Luke fell out the bottom of the Cloud City ventilation system.
Idea I just had speculating on what caused Ren to break bad
I think Luke was training him on Dagobah, sent him into the cave, thinking Ren would have a similar experience to his own, learning the lesson that embracing the darkside was killing yourself, and instead the experience Ren had was so traumatizing that it ultimately led him to break bad (and flee the training process, which may have also been prompted by his parents splitting up (akin to how Luke fleeing the training process was prompted by the torture of Han)).
The only thing I disliked about the movie was how JJ Abrahms continues to use a "Thank You for Smoking" approach to the mechanics and functions of the universe. Whether it is Star Trek or Star Wars, he's doing the same cheap trick "whatever device" rationalization it seems like. Star Trek had beaming people across the galaxy, or beaming people in and out of ships traveling at warp speed or whatever else was convenient for the most thoughtless way to transition a scene,
and the equivalents are used here to get around this or that problem in the narrative. Jump to hyperspace from inside a ship, Jump out of hyperspace on a planet. Gah! it's the only thing that really bothered me (other than the hyperspace traveling laserbeam and seeing planets go boom from another planet, or a sun getting deflated having no effect on gravity, but that was just a sort of eyerolls, and relatively shrug worthy all things considered) JJAbrams just is incapable of conceiving distance on the scale of outerspace and seems to think we'd see an enormous explosion if Mars or Venus went boom). Still, I'm not even really mad at all the Abrahms thank you for smoking nonsense he put in because the movie is so damn good.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:35 pm
by Trees
This moved pretty fast onto my Dynamic Top 10 for this year. Enjoyed it waaaay more than "Mad Max," for example.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:03 pm
by hearthesilence
domino harvey wrote:hearthesilence wrote:Wake up, sheeple!
Picturing a reverse
They Live scenario where someone accidentally takes off their 3D glasses during a show, only to discover the subliminal messages embedded throughout the film.
As for the film itself, it's pretty calculated, and Nick Pinkerton's quip was pretty apt - they basically played it safe. It's the launch of a $4 billion investment, and they want to win back the public perception of the franchise, even though the much-maligned prequels were profitable as hell. As a former
Star Wars fanatic who gradually lost interest while moving on to other things, I still think the "first" two films are easily the best, but this is on solid middle ground between those and the later films. To their credit, the film doesn't feel too much like a retread even though it does retrace the plot of the first movie from '77.
The big surprise is predictable, but even though the set-up immediately telegraphs the result, it still works.
If there was any nagging doubt about why Harrison Ford came back to this franchise, this pretty much settles it. Ford gets the death he wanted in Return of the Jedi and it limits his involvement with future films, and Disney manages to get him back AND get a big tragic payoff that takes the film to a dramatic height only matched by Vader's revelation in Empire Strikes Back.
The new actors are arguably better than any previous cast member save Ford - it helps that they got a few name actors who were already superb elsewhere, but then again they did that with the prequels, and none of them could rise above the characterizations they were given. So it probably helps that they had Lawrence Kasdan and another writer with Pixar credentials, which brings up another nice thing about this film - the stuff you don't typically associate with a Star Wars movie. The movies are typically rigid and stiff, but things have opened up here. When was the last time you saw really good pantomime in a Star Wars movie? One of the most enjoyable moments in the film feels like new territory here, but it would have been a natural fit for
Wall*E.
And that brings up another point, the humor is really missed from this series. I can't recall any good INTENTIONAL comedy from the prequels. I'd much sooner recall the comedic moments in this film than any of its chase scenes or New Age mumbo jumbo (which also is thankfully kept to a minimum and even the source of one of the funniest exchanges in the film).
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:14 am
by swo17
Alright, this was mostly very good, and in some ways an improvement on the original trilogy. The CG is welcome for the action sequences but distracting when it comes to characters. (As much effort as went into making Snoke and Maz emotive here, it's still 1000 times less convincing than the puppet work originally done for Yoda.) Kylo Ren was a fantastic villain, even if he's too much a rehash of Vader to feel comparably iconic. Also, not to call into question the entire thrust of the film but um,
Luke went missing but...there is a map leading directly to him? So he's not really all that missing then. And once the map is restored, it takes Rey all of five minutes to find him, but the First Order never bothered to look for him while they had the map intact? Also, while they're attacking the Death Star planet, shouldn't acquiring the rest of the map have been part of the plan?
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:37 am
by hearthesilence
Inane, I know, but that's how it is with every Star Wars movie.
Once again, for God knows how many times in a sci-fi action movie, all you have to do is hit one sweet spot and you vanquish the enemy. If only wars were won so easily.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:51 am
by Jeff
swo17 wrote:Luke went missing but...there is a map leading directly to him? So he's not really all that missing then. And once the map is restored, it takes Rey all of five minutes to find him, but the First Order never bothered to look for him while they had the map intact? Also, while they're attacking the Death Star planet, shouldn't acquiring the rest of the map have been part of the plan?
He wasn't exactly "missing," as Han and Leia seemed to know that he had made a pilgrimage to "the original Jedi temple." They just didn't know exactly where that was. I inferred that the large, but incomplete, portion of the map to the Jedi temple was somewhat more accessible to a broader group of people, as the Empire had a copy in their archives and R2 had one stored. The Resistance was just unaware of it. It was the final few steps that were missing. Basically like Google Maps directions that just tell you how to get out of your neighborhood and on the highway, but don't tell you which exit to take or the actual address. Max von Sydow is either some old Jedi or friend of the Skywalkers who was one of the only living beings who had the final steps in the directions, which are really the only useful part. He wasn't supposed to share that information with anyone, but felt that the galaxy needed Luke or something, and so he put them on that big flash drive and gave it to Llewyn Davis and BB-8.
I don't the think Empire ever had the complete map. Kylo Ren mentioned only that The First Order had recovered an incomplete portion from the Empire's archives.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:55 am
by domino harvey
My understanding was that the incomplete map was left with a Von Sydow as an emergency only way of finding Luke, but just in case it fell into the wrong hands, it needed both parts, with the other presumably only shared by R2D2 when Luke uses his powers to turn him back on and "allow" himself to be found. They couldn't have found him with just one part
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:08 am
by Jeff
domino harvey wrote:My understanding was that the incomplete map was left with a Von Sydow as an emergency only way of finding Luke, but just in case it fell into the wrong hands, it needed both parts, with the other presumably only shared by R2D2 when Luke uses his powers to turn him back on and "allow" himself to be found. They couldn't have found him with just one part
I guess I hadn't even thought about why R2 suddenly came back on, but I really like the idea of Jedi Remote Start. It's also possible that if Rey is Luke's kid, R2 had been programmed to wake up only to the sound of her voice or something.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:51 am
by swo17
R2 magically coming on at the end sort of bothered me, but I think I can buy that explanation.
Also, how does Kylo Ren sense Han's arrival on the planet? I thought it was only the force that was supposed to give people away (hence Luke's comment in an earlier episode that he had endangered a mission by tagging along).
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:26 pm
by Jeff
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:58 pm
by Trees
swo17 wrote:R2 magically coming on at the end sort of bothered me, but I think I can buy that explanation.
Also, how does Kylo Ren sense Han's arrival on the planet? I thought it was only the force that was supposed to give people away (hence Luke's comment in an earlier episode that he had endangered a mission by tagging along).
Kylo has super emo force powers.

Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:38 pm
by Jeff
J.J. Abrams and Michael Arndt have a sort of explanation as to why
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:36 pm
by bearcuborg
I think that R2-D2 had to wait for the right moment
(the lightsaber to be found, and more importantly the force had to awaken in Rey)
.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:29 am
by lacritfan
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:31 am
by domino harvey
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:35 am
by swo17
And BB-8 was voiced by Bill Hader and Jean-Ralphio!
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:11 pm
by domino harvey
To the surprise of no one, this broke
pretty much every domestic box office record there is. Right now estimates are hovering at around $250 million, with unexpectedly low drop-offs from day to day. I don't think any other movie will ever outperform this one in terms of one weekend ticket sales, we might literally be seeing what the maximum box office return for
any movie looks like (at least til they double ticket prices in a few years...)
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:24 pm
by Ribs
Just wait until Avatar 2.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:35 pm
by domino harvey
Believe me, I'm trying to wait as long as possible for it. Kidding aside, I don't think Avatar's fandom has thrived with the fervor of Star Wars in the past six years. I think it'll clean up at the box office, but I don't think we'll see attendance like this. Then again, I famously thought the original would bomb, so what do I know... (Actually, this. I know this. Avatar 2 will not dethrone the Force Awakens)
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:42 pm
by knives
No, it will through Cameron's Faustin deal, dethrone Avatar. It should be noted that despite this massive, record breaking earning there is still the statistical possibility (described on BOMojo) however unlikely that this won't even beat Jurassic World in the long run.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:43 pm
by Ribs
I think the main problem with the Avatar sequels is they'll perform about on the level of your average hit blockbuster domestically but that means the three of them combined will total a little bit more than the total domestic gross of the original. Presumably China is crazy interested and might give even bigger reciepts this time but it's hard to imagine they'll be seem as anything but a still hugely profitable huge disappointment a la Amazing Spider-Man 2.
(This is off the Star Wars track but I really do get the impression from interviews that Cameron cares deeply for this franchise and is giving it everything he can to make the individual films actively exciting and new and not just your average never-ending multi-part sequel storylines)
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:54 pm
by DarkImbecile
The real box office question is, will SW:TFA dethrone the first Avatar as the all-time champ (or even Titanic at no. 2)? I have to say, I somewhat doubt it, given the growth in home viewing since 2009 has been so substantial that it will probably eat into the repeat viewings that put Cameron's films on top of that list. In addition, the 3D (and especially IMAX 3D) showings of Avatar were so invigorating at the time even to those generally dissatisfied with the plotting, acting, and dialogue, and I don't think Episode VII has anything like that to pull in casual fans multiple times.
As one of those casual fans, I thought Abrams' movie was fine, but the criticism that every potential source of dramatic tension - especially in the latter half of the film - was so quickly and easily resolved (even some of Ford's dialogue seems to be gently mocking the film on this point) really resonates. The first half and the new characters were compelling enough, though, for me to be genuinely intrigued to see if Rian Johnson will take the franchise somewhere compelling and fresh now that Abrams' fan service restart has done its job.
EDIT: I see knives already beat me to some of these points while I was taking my time typing.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:32 pm
by Shrew
Yeah, the real pivot point for Star Wars vs. Avatar is China. Since the original trilogy never had a release in China and the prequels did okay but not spectacular business, it's hard to see the Chinese coming out in droves like they did for Avatar. Rogue One, with the casting of Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen, is obviously trying to get Chinese audiences interested in the franchise, but I don't know if it could ever become the cultural icon it is here in the West. Whereas Avatar 2 could well be that pivotal film where China finally outdoes the US for opening box office.
As to the actual film, I really liked it though I missed some of the "quieter" moments of the old films. Abrams's pacing makes the film fly by, and he continues to be great about weaving character beats into action, but there's so much going on that I really felt that the film could have used more breathing space to develop (as is, the only real quiet moments come at the beginning, a little bit whenever Han and Leia or Han and Rey interact). Could easily have done without the rathbor sequence, for example. And for all of Lucas's faults, he did often know how to build a scene--the slow build toward climax that marks some of the original trilogy's best sequences like the Death Star trench run, Luke and Vader's fight in Empire. Abrams's film favors lots of smaller though constant set-pieces over big drawn-out ones, which is impressive if a tad exhausting.
Also, for all the hullabaloo over spoilers, the big plot points here have to be some of the most unspoilerish spoilers of all time.
Especially Kylo Ren's parentage. I did really like how quickly the film reveals that, building the relationship up piece by piece and gradually filling in more characters as we go along. Good sense of dramatic irony gained throughout the film rather than just a single "shock" moment.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:06 pm
by Trees
I would be careful not to underestimate Cameron and AVATAR 2. The bottom line is, AVATAR 2 will sink or swim after the first $1.5 billion or so based on how good it is -- how entertaining, how many times people come back to see it, and so on. Many people have bet against Cameron in the past, and lost their shirts.
Same goes for FORCE AWAKENS. Whether it will bring in 1 billion or 2 billion or 3 billion USD will be based on how good it is, and to some extent on repeat viewings. I happen to think the film was pretty damn good, so I think it will have legs and will ultimately do well against TITANIC and AVATAR. We'll see.
Re: The Star Wars Franchise
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:39 pm
by bottled spider
Does The Force Awakens require familiarity with the previous entries? I've only seen Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.
[typo corrected]