120 / BD 46 Die Nibelungen

[HerrSchreck]

there were tantalising excerpts from the unreleased resto of Gerlach's "Grieshuus"...

Whomever is first out of the gate with THIS film is formally, completely and totally my hero.

The cojones-meter has just started to whir . . . . I hope to hear it beep someday.

[denti alligator]

So glad to see Schreck and Tommaso continuing to push for the great, forgotten German silents!

Bravo! Won't the Filmmuseum people tackle that one?

[TMDaines]

If it's the film called "Das Erbe der Nibelungen" which they showed on TV together with the broadcast of the resto, then it's a general documentary on "Die Nibelungen" and its influence on silent filmmaking in Germany in the 20s. Of course there's something on the new resto as well, but certainly not exclusively. The running time of 60 minutes makes me strongly suspect it will be that documentary. And it's a good one.

Well, that sounds good! Hope that is the one here.

[Tommaso]

So glad to see Schreck and Tommaso continuing to push for the great, forgotten German silents!

Always at your service And good to see you back in action here, denti.

Filmmuseum most likely won't release the Gerlach as it's UFA material, owned by FWMS, and these people are sitting on their gems and won't give them into other hands but Transit's (from where these films get licensed to the rest of the world, if you're lucky). And in addition, with "Grieshuus" they're waiting for someone to find funds for the re-orchestration of the original score, which only survives as a piano reduction, which they say they don't want to use.... Don't expect it before 2020, I'd say.

However, there'll be new broadcasts of "Mutter Krausens Fahrt ins Glück" (Jutzi) and "Die Weber" (Zelnik) this year on arte TV. At least something.

[denti alligator]

However, there'll be new broadcasts of "Mutter Krausens Fahrt ins Glück" (Jutzi) and "Die Weber" (Zelnik) this year on arte TV. At least something.

Be still my heart!

Will have to find my way back to a certain other online enclave...

[Minkin]

I guess I'm glad I didn't give a fiery response to people. Best to be silent first - then others can step in and defend you. Though I must respond to MichaelB (the 'can't fathom' comment), by directing him towards the Rosemary's Baby thread, or most every other recent Criterion thread.

I'll also say that I'm not a packaging fetishist (I think you failed to read my words correctly, Bürgermeister. That's a bit of a rude notion on your part) and am perfectly happy with the cover and lack of Tshirt and Poster, though it really does seem odd to have Testament (as good as it may be) get a better special treatment than Nibelung. It seems like a perfect opportunity to give some classy packaging - and I'd gladly pay whatever price for it. Just throw Siegfried and Kriemhild sharing a water bowel, and it'd be great. I guess I'm trying to make the case - so that MOC reconsider passing over this one. Yeah, that didn't help my non-packaging-fetishist argument (especially since I've bought all the MOC Steelbooks), but I nary think I'm the only one who thinks it odd that MOC didn't at least treat this better than Testament

If it's the film called "Das Erbe der Nibelungen" which they showed on TV together with the broadcast of the resto, then it's a general documentary on "Die Nibelungen" and its influence on silent filmmaking in Germany in the 20s. Of course there's something on the new resto as well, but certainly not exclusively. The running time of 60 minutes makes me strongly suspect it will be that documentary. And it's a good one.

I suppose I should learn what exactly is involved with the documentary before I denounce it. Usually, "restoration demonstration" are not words to get your heart pumping (one can only sit through so many times at the wet gate). I knew it must have been something more than that if it were an hour - but I am still curious as to how in depth it goes. Typically, a Kalat commentary would come in for the rescue, and it's a shame that he 'retired' before getting to Nibelung. Perhaps it's because my professor is such an expert on the films and source that I feel rather spoiled. I can see if I can get him out of the woodwork to do some commentary or other supplement. Yeah, I know what you think, boring professor, but he's quite the personality. There's quite a bit to cover, that I would think would be glossed over or absent from a general documentary (the restoration one) - though, to be fair, I haven't seen this documentary. Tommaso, how in depth does it go - say with - the source material? the Nazi connection? Wagner connection? etc.

I guess I'll lastly explain why I'm so crazed about the Gaylord Carter score. I suppose there's my appreciation for his organ scores -which are too often dropped from new releases of silent films. There's also my appreciation for his great talent and for what he did for silent films - giving them new life so that we could appreciate them - rather than tossing Toccata or Grieg onto a silent film. He has also been completely unappreciated for his contributions - which is quite sad. Lastly, and most easily to rationalize everything - I have a rather personal story with the score and this film. I met my S.O. thanks to this film and its' Carter score. Having both attended the same screening, we met randomly elsewhere and recognized each other - and both held the film in great esteem. So, we routinely make reference to the score (typically the Attila encampment song) and opening - which have both remained so iconic. So the film and the Carter score are quite personal to me, thus explaining my crazed attempts to constantly push this score for its' release (and no, we're not renaissance fair people). I know one sappy story isn't enough to add a score to a film (unless you want me to get engaged in some creative way while using the score or use it for a wedding march - just as long as Tommaso doesn't appear randomly and toss a spear at me). If you want better justification, then you can use the Carter score to better connect the film to Wagner and that interpretation of the story and film. I don't believe any new footage has been discovered since, so I would assume that the score would at least be easily added (unless it was composed for a different frame rate - which I don't think is the case either). And yes, MOC hasn't made any announcement either way about the score (yeah, the Huppertz is a given, but I would have thought any additional score would have been mentioned at this point- as is the case for Jeanne). So hopefully that explains my great passion and fervor for that plucky organ score.

So, sorry if it appeared I was overly critical of MOC and this release. I've been waiting several years for this (getting by on an old VHS copy while in anticipation)- so I was bound to be disappointed by anything less than a 10 disc set with a packaged book of the original German & English Nibelungenlied text. This is certainly the release of the decade for me, so don't think that I'm unappreciative of the film or seeing the new restoration.
I just feel that there's some things missing from this release that could/should be present (even some of the Kino extras would have been welcome). I'll still push for the Carter score until I hear a definitive no from MOC, then I'll probably bug Kino to death about it, then perhaps the Germans. Sorry if my ramblings annoyed y'all and thanks TMDaines for defending me. This is probably my favorite film - so I feel justified in seeming overly insane when referring to it.

So hopefully that clears that matter somewhat.


Edit-

Also to be noted, I just discovered this on the Amazon UK page, and it states that more extras are to follow:

SPECIAL FEATURES:
Long-awaited expert HD restoration by the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung, Germany
Immaculately presented in the film's original frame rates and aspect ratio, in 1080p on the Blu-ray
Newly translated optional English subtitles for the original German intertitles
An hour-long documentary: The Heritage of Die Nibelungen
Illustrated booklet featuring the words of Lang, rare archival imagery, and more
Further details to be announced nearer the release date!

[Drucker]

Edit-

Also to be noted, I just discovered this on the Amazon UK page, and it states that more extras are to follow:

SPECIAL FEATURES:
Long-awaited expert HD restoration by the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung, Germany
Immaculately presented in the film's original frame rates and aspect ratio, in 1080p on the Blu-ray
Newly translated optional English subtitles for the original German intertitles
An hour-long documentary: The Heritage of Die Nibelungen
Illustrated booklet featuring the words of Lang, rare archival imagery, and more
Further details to be announced nearer the release date!

It doesn't say that on MOC's page but it does say it elsewhere, like for the Ozu release.

[Tommaso]

I haven't seen this documentary. Tommaso, how in depth does it go - say with - the source material? the Nazi connection? Wagner connection? etc.

Good to see (as confirmed via amazon) it's indeed the documentary I mentioned. It's pretty all-inclusive: some bits about the Nibelungenlied, the nazi connection, other films like "Grieshuus" and "Der Turm des Schweigens"; then of course also comparisons between various prints, restoration history, the original score and its new recording. The length of the film as shown on TV was about 70 min.; as MoC speak of an 'hour-long' documentary I only hope that nothing was cut out, especially not the excerpts from other films.

Long-awaited expert HD restoration by the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Murnau-Stiftung, Germany

I guess the real discussions will begin once people make up their mind about this "expert" restoration. For instance about the tinting, or the fact that they chose to have the films run at different speeds: 20 fps for "Siegfried", 22 fps for "Kriemhild", and all because of the music 'requiring' such speed-up of the second film (doesn't that sound familiar from "Metropolis"?) There are also shots in the old version which are NOT in the new resto. This "Nibelungen"-version may be seen as rather controversial in some respects...

[Sloper]

Minkin, I think Carter is under-appreciated as well. It's not hard to see why, as his instrument can't help but sound old-fashioned, but if you listen with a sympathetic ear his scores are wonderful, and as you say - wonderfully authentic. I'm sure there would be all sorts of problems with releasing his score on this edition, but it would be nice to have it.

I've been really getting into Wagner lately, especially the Ring Cycle, spurred partly by my love of this film; I keep meaning to read my copy of the Nibelungenlied as well. Perhaps now that this is finally coming out I'll get around to it.

[evillights]

though it really does seem odd to have Testament (as good as it may be) get a better special treatment than Nibelung. It seems like a perfect opportunity to give some classy packaging - and I'd gladly pay whatever price for it. Just throw Siegfried and Kriemhild sharing a water bowel, and it'd be great. I guess I'm trying to make the case - so that MOC reconsider passing over this one. Yeah, that didn't help my non-packaging-fetishist argument (especially since I've bought all the MOC Steelbooks), but I nary think I'm the only one who thinks it odd that MOC didn't at least treat this better than Testament

This is an epic ramble. We're treating Testament "better" than Die Nibelungen, on the basis of there being no SteelBook? Well, we would have had to include four discs in the SteelBook edition, and it's not logistically, not physically, possible. Rest assured, we will do our best to throw Siegfried and Kriemhild sharing a water bowel.

I guess I'll lastly explain why I'm so crazed about the Gaylord Carter score. [...] I don't believe any new footage has been discovered since, so I would assume that the score would at least be easily added [...] So hopefully that explains my great passion and fervor for that plucky organ score.

When you watch the documentary, you'll get a sense of why a previously recorded score may not just automatically fit on top of a new restoration.

This would be an extreme example, but just so folks might better understand the issue in the abstract: "Film X is presented in a new 2012 restoration, which integrates [or which removes] 30 minutes of footage previously considered lost [or considered undesired by the director for his final cut]." — cut to Internet: "If they don't include the Carl Davis score from 1982 I am going to rage all over the forums."

So, sorry if it appeared I was overly critical of MOC and this release. [...] I'll still push for the Carter score until I hear a definitive no from MOC, then I'll probably bug Kino to death about it, then perhaps the Germans.

Oh, brother. Someone send Kino and the Germans fair warning, would you?

I feel justified in seeming overly insane when referring to it.

Certainly — the Internet was put on this earth for people to rant anonymously about whatever they want and criticize to their hearts' content, in a way they never would sitting across the table face-to-face with the target of their criticism, all while not understanding details and circumstances that might be involved in the matter at hand. It is very, very important that you feel justified.

[HerrSchreck]

Rest assured, we will do our best to throw Siegfried and Kriemhild sharing a water bowel.

Dude . . . I just spit this purple hibiscus iced tea my boss just had me try across the keyboard.

I almost lost control of my water bowels.

[zedz]

I demand a miniature gigantic tree!

[Jeff]

I don't really see anything wrong with Minkin questioning what currently appears, on paper, to be relatively sparse supplements. We've all certainly done the same in the Rosemary's Baby thread and others. While I personally think that a lengthy documentary and what is sure to be another excellent MoC book are probably more than adequate accompaniments to such an epic-length film, it's hardly unheard of to expect a definitive set of audio and video supplements on a long-awaited major release. I've no doubt that MoC will give us another indispensable package, but I don't see any reason why people should avoid voicing disappointment in a reasonable manner just because MoC staff post here. If anything, it's nice that they can chime in to assuage our concerns.

[HerrSchreck]

So we won't be creating a WHY DON'T THEY RELEASE ONLY THE EXTRAS THAT I WANT subfoum?

... And the ROSEMARY'S thread had people getting snippy, too, towards those that durst complain.

Seriously, and in Craig's defense, I think its less that the guy complained, but did so in Martian prose of grinding angst and novella length.

[Jeff]

So we won't be creating a WHY DON'T THEY RELEASE ONLY THE EXTRAS THAT I WANT subfoum?

... And the ROSEMARY'S thread had people getting snippy, too, towards those that durst complain.

To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the minimalist supplement route. Lord knows I've bought my share of pricey, featureless Twilight Time discs. There's certainly no doubt I'll buy Die Nibelungen too. I do, however, think that when Criterion and Masters of Cinema appear go that route on a major title, it's just sort of surprising, and natural for people to at least question it -- the way you, and I, and zedz, and others did in the Rosemary's Baby thread. Other people disagreed with us, but at least nobody implied we had no right to criticize or question Criterion's decisions. I already know that I can't fathom the massive amount of effort that goes into a Criterion or Masters of Cinema release, and I always trust that they're putting out the best packages they possibly can. Despite that, I know that I, for one, am not going to censor my reaction when they occasionally surprise me with their decisions, and I can't imagine that you would either.

I think its less that the guy complained, but did so in Martian prose of grinding angst and novella length.

I read it as taking issue with the content, more than the form of Minkin's post, but okay.

[evillights]

So we won't be creating a WHY DON'T THEY RELEASE ONLY THE EXTRAS THAT I WANT subfoum?

... And the ROSEMARY'S thread had people getting snippy, too, towards those that durst complain.

Seriously, and in Craig's defense, I think its less that the guy complained, but did so in Martian prose of grinding angst and novella length.

Thanks, Schreck. And to clarify, I meant no personal offense — it's just, every now and then, y'know, let there be some proportion, if not in the degree of expectations fulfilled or disappointed, but in how it's expressed. So, basically: all-of-what-you-said. Since you mention Rosemary/Wells, tangentially, I'd observe that that's a perfect example of some of the, shall we say, more hyperbolic and vituperative aspects of forums, blogs, etc., which have circulated in full-force over the last few days on different Internet platforms... especially in concert with this entire Rotten Tomatoes / Dark Knight Rises business, which kind of resides in this quantum zone of both-comic-and-disturbing. (But that's something with entirely different implications, though I'd point to earlier portions of the Tiny Furniture thread to locate a comparable aggression.) Quelle époque...

Anyway, back to the film — and since Batman came up — Jonathan Rosenbaum has on multiple occasions expressed the opinion that Die Nibelungen is a prime influence on Batman. I've never quite seen it, but could be.

Last note about on-disc supplements: Kalat was the one we thought would be the ringer for an erudite, and compelling-throughout-five-hours contribution; he wasn't available, though, and from our perspective, for this film in particular, it wasn't so much a matter of including a commentary for the sake of it, as the desire to include a Kalat-Commentary. Hopefully at some point in the future he'll do some more — they're pretty great. That being said, the documentary is a very worthwhile piece — but, obviously, we look at our booklets as every-bit-as-important as whatever is on the disc, and it's a medium that allows even greater curatorial gusto, maybe. And this release will have a very good booklet. Only today, we secured a piece for inclusion that I wasn't even aware of existing until two days ago, and which is incredibly beautiful, and might be considered by some to be worth more than any number of more standard commentaries, or video introductions. (Not to take anything away from either form — when they're good, they're good.)

[zedz]

from our perspective, for this film in particular, it wasn't so much a matter of including a commentary for the sake of it, as the desire to include a Kalat-Commentary.

This makes perfect sense. A five-hour commentary in almost every other instance would be a terrible idea, likely as punishing for the commentator as for the listener, but a five-hour Kalat commentary is one I'd be itching to hear.

[matrixschmatrix]

I wouldn't mind a five hour Rosenbaum commentary, but it really is a shame that Kalat retired- this is the kind of project that is custom designed for him. I'll happily buy it anyway, but I'd be counting the days if he was going to be on it.

[swo17]

Hire HerrSchreck to do one! (I'm not joking.)

[knives]

I would really love to hear that actually. I'm not sure if he has as smooth a delivery as Kalat, but he's as jacksmart and knowledgeable. Should be entertaining too.

[matrixschmatrix]

Obviously we're a bit late on this, but they also could have done what Criterion did on Seven Samurai and Children of Paradise and divided the commentary duties up between a couple of different people.

I wonder if would could start a Kickstarter to get Kalat to release a commentary on mp3 or something. The idea of what could have been is just haunting, dammit.

[knives]

Also to be fair I believe Nick has said MOC had to start shortening the number of extras because the BBFC fee for extras made it so that it was impossible to make a buck.

[MichaelB]

The cost of doing commentaries has increased significantly since the BBFC started regarding them as "new video works" four or five years ago and charging accordingly. And I suspect the number of UK releases with commentaries has dropped significantly as a direct result.

And when you factor in a five-hour running time, things get more expensive still, even if the commentary was recorded at the commentator's home on his own equipment.

[Tommaso]

Hire HerrSchreck to do one! (I'm not joking.)

I would really love to hear that actually. I'm not sure if he has as smooth a delivery as Kalat, but he's as jacksmart and knowledgeable. Should be entertaining too.

Indeed. If anyone ever considers doing an R2 upgrade on "Menilmontant" or "Sir Arne", Herr Schreck's commentaries should be a mandatory inclusion.

[HerrSchreck]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate that.

I must say that even the thought of doing five-plus hours on a title makes my knees knock. Even something as extraordinary as this masterwork which can be approached from so many different angles of exploration.

Kalat is an extraordinary dude, one of the few people I can think of who can be engaging no matter how long he speaks . . . both cuts of Godzilla . . . both Dr. Mabuse's. . . can talk about Lang over and over again without losing his ability to be compelling.

Tom, speaking of Menil, I just reuploaded links for it (the old ones were dead owing to the file hosting site changing ownership/url's), and will be doing Black Friday and The Devil Is a Woman just following, today.