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denti alligator wrote:

Jonathan Turell wrote:my guess is that it'll probably happen

Amazing!! This is marvelous news!

Sorry. but this is a total dick move by Turell. Their Eisenstein wont happen for another five years at the very least, and a message like this is meant to stunt Kino's sales. Criterion probably dragged their asses on these titles and Kino beat them to the punch. It's called competition and Criterion lost this battle. Sorry, had to vent. In this case, Turell is all talk.

Cinephrenic wrote:It will happen, but just a matter of when. Maybe another revolution will happen in Russia by that time.

Which might be a very long time given the way the Russian mafioso Putin is running things at the moment! (Luckily I'm not planning to meet any Russians for lunch at a sushi restaurant in the near future! But you know things are bad when you start wishing the drunkard was back in power in Russia and the sex crazed guy running America now that things have moved to the even bleaker realm of thugs and imbeciles!)

justeleblanc wrote:Sorry. but this is a total dick move by Turell. Their Eisenstein wont happen for another five years at the very least

I think you're being a little too harsh. What makes you say that? Not being polemical or anything...just curious regarding your reasoning.

Tribe

I'm pretty cynical, and I look at this as Criterion's way of being a dick to anyone who violates their space. Plus, my few contacts at criterion say they dragged their feet with the Eisensteins -- as they do with lots of titles. Kino pulled a fast one on Criterion and Turell is hoping he still will release it, as opposed to actually saying they will. It's like Chris Dodd saying he'll win Iowa.

This is all just interpretation, but it was meant to water the mouths of people like us, and I'm sure it did the trick.

Based on the Tartan collection, apart from STRIKE, there appears to be very little sharp and close to original source material circulating, and apparently nothing new forthcoming from Russia... Presumably the CC figure holding back is losing sales and they may yet go forward with a compromise and compromised solution, or not...

Could it be possible they were waiting for different (or better elements)? There's been some discussion on the DVD Beaver list serv about there existing at least three versions presently...I can't recall if that discussion touched on any restorations or not though.

Tribe

The Kino Potemkin will be from a 2005 Restoration and will be shown on TCM Sunday Oct. 21. I saw a preview on TCM for the DVD and the new image was night and day better than the "before." Here's an article that discusses the restoration origins.

justeleblanc wrote:Sorry. but this is a total dick move by Turell. Their Eisenstein wont happen for another five years at the very least, and a message like this is meant to stunt Kino's sales. Criterion probably dragged their asses on these titles and Kino beat them to the punch. It's called competition and Criterion lost this battle.

I can't see that at all. It's not like they posted this on the Criterion website. Somebody asked and Turell answered. It was a private email correspondence. They're not trumpeting their possible release or urging "Don't buy the Kino." Turrell's email seemed pretty honest and candid to me.

Criterion should use that release as a springboard for going into High Defintion. Licensing agreements may be for DVD only.

A lot of companies have learned their lesson from vhs when licensing now... a lot of companies now license films for any current or future formats to ensure they don't get screwed over. Criterion, however, probably gets stuff from big studios by exclusively licensing for DVD.

Jeff wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:this is a total dick move by Turell. Their Eisenstein wont happen for another five years at the very least

It's not like they posted this on the Criterion website. Somebody asked and Turell answered. It was a private email correspondence. They're not trumpeting their possible release or urging "Don't buy the Kino." Turrell's email seemed pretty honest and candid to me.

Well, obviously they wouldn't say "Dont buy the Kino" but certainly, especially if Turell emailed you himself, it would seem like he still thinks theres a chance this would be released, even if it wasn't the case. And seriously, if the Kino print is as good as others say it is, why on the Earth would Criterion release something not in need of another release. Oh wait, they did that already.

lol good one

justeleblanc wrote:And seriously, if the Kino print is as good as others say it is, why on the Earth would Criterion release something not in need of another release.

Because it will come with remastered versions of restored prints of Strike, October, The General Line, and maybe even more!

denti alligator wrote:it will come with remastered versions of restored prints of Strike, October, The General Line, and maybe even more!

That is if Kino doesn't beat them to those as well.

All this talk of Eisenstein is just making me think where's the love for Pudovkin?

Precisely, the current Pudovkins are in a much worse state than the Eisensteins. "Mother" being taken from what is clearly an analogue source, "St. Petersburg" having been fiddled around with the contrast knob, and only "Storm over Asia" looking somewhat allright. I agree, we could use a good version of "October" (which at least would do away with that horrible Shostakovich score), but there's really no need for another "Potemkin", even if they went to the Russians. That is precisely what Transit did with their 2005 resto (which will be the source for the Kino), and the results could hardly be bettered.

Tommaso wrote:that horrible Shostakovich score

Shostakovich had nothing to do with creating this score. It was cobbled together by others from bits and pieces of his previously written works.

The appropriated music by Shostakovich is mostly wonderful -- when in proper context.

Michael Kerpan wrote:The appropriated music by Shostakovich is mostly wonderful -- when in proper context.

Yes, sorry for my bad way of expressing this. I indeed didn't want to bash Shosty (although I'm not all too fond of his music generally), but also had this cut-up made by others in mind. It doesn't do justice to the film nor to the symphonies.

FSimeoni wrote:All this talk of Eisenstein is just making me think where's the love for Pudovkin?

Right here, baby. Pud, along with Dovzhenko handed Eisenstien his hat by employing the same dense editorial means without losing any richness of atmosphere, and the haunting cinematographic depth in both are totally sublime. I enjoy Eisenstein but I love Pudovkin and Dovzhenko. Films like THE END OF ST PETERSBERG, STORM OVER ASIA, DESERTER from Pud, and ARSENAL, ZVENIGORA (recently saw the new resto at Anthology and you folks are going to faint.. I know no one else has seen it here in NY because there was like one other dude in the cinema along w me & my girlfriend!), EARTH, all deserve major revisitations in HD transfers. Turrell would do well to set his sights on this material instead of duping what looks to be that last word on POTEMKIN in R1 for the next 4-8 years.

These guys are wonderful in sound classics but they are just mondo neutered in the zone of silent film. Can they show some cojones just once and pull something sublimely wild and obscure and supersoughtafter in the silents zone?

EDIT: regarding the 'kovich score... I must be the only guy who likes that hyperdramatic score he tacked onto POTEMKIN. I find it appropriately tragic, and speaking to the history books with the same grandiosity and tone that Eisenstein uses for his propaganga-- which is indeed not subtle-- in his famous film. I find it mostly supportive of the film rather than overbearing--- the composer was clearly seeking to support and ehighten the images not scream for attention-- and the tragically delicate motif that is elucidated as the sailors are poking the meat around before the little toothless ships doc always gets me in the gut... seems to serve to remind me of the violence of the age hanging right there in that carcass, the starvation, the bloodbaths etc. I don't think it's a masterpiece score by any means (and it has huge holes) but I give film music passes versus standard composition.

And yes MK is right the OKTOBER piece is a mish mash hodgepodge of elements, like a mosaic of other scores, with many repeated motifs lifted direct from POTEMKIN.

Re. the big three Pudovkins and Arsenal: the R1 Image releases are decent stop-gaps. Arsenal, Storm Over Asia, and End of St. Petersburg were done by David Shepard; Mother by the less reputable Corinth. All four are at least watchable and inexpensive. Earth is another matter. It needs to be seen in any state, but the only decent release is the un-English-subbed German disc. That's an obvious upgrade-in-waiting for Kino.

There's a lot of deja vu on these last two pages. Maybe a mod could clean it up?

Also, with Under the Volcano not actually being licensed from Universal and Michael Fitzgerald having produced both it and Wise Blood, I wonder if the latter film might be a Janus property now also. Fitzgerald's Ithaca production company made both. IMDB has Wise Blood being released theatrically by New Line, but Universal put it out on VHS. I'm guessing that Criterion/Janus now have both of the Fitzgerald-produced titles.

Shostakovich may have written the music which got used in the standard Soviet editions of Eisenstein silents -- but he was not involved in the selection or arrangement of the music used. I assume he _consented_ -- but it's not like he could have said "no".

souvenir wrote:Also, with Under the Volcano not actually being licensed from Universal and Michael Fitzgerald having produced both it and Wise Blood, I wonder if the latter film might be a Janus property now also. Fitzgerald's Ithaca production company made both. IMDB has Wise Blood being released theatrically by New Line, but Universal put it out on VHS. I'm guessing that Criterion/Janus now have both of the Fitzgerald-produced titles.

This seems very, very likely, especially with all the info floating around here and on IMDB of its release sometime in 2008. Criterion seems to be having decent luck with wrangling titles away from studios as of late (Under the Volcano [from Ithaca instead of Universal], Stranger than Paradise, Night on Earth [the latter two from Jarmusch directly instead of MGM and Fine Line respectively]). I'm guessing that it's cheaper to acquire from individuals instead of studios, even if the link to the studio's already there (see Universal and UtV). Also, it's probably the easiest way to get the rights to a sticky wicket like Wise Blood: wait for or force the rights to expire and acquire the title directly from the original rights holder (here Fitzgerald/Ithaca)).

Michael Kerpan wrote:Shostakovich may have written the music which got used in the standard Soviet editions of Eisenstein silents -- but he was not involved in the selection or arrangement of the music used. I assume he _consented_ -- but it's not like he could have said "no".

I'm not sure he COULD have consented, considering this version was released in 1976, and Shostakovich had been.....err.... de-composing since August 1975. Here are the credits for that restoration, which don't mention Shostakovich's active participation:

Restoration Credits The motion picture Battleship Potemkin which you have just watched was restored in the Soviet Union in 1976.
Restoration work was supervised by Sergei Yutkevich.
With the participation of director D. Vasilev.
Scientific consultant, N. Cleiman. Music editors A. Kliot, A. Lapissov.
Sound editors, V. Babushkin, L. Benevolskaya.
Camera, P. Kusnetsov.
Camera effects, Y. Dyomin.
Cutter, K. Aleyeva.
Artist, A. Kobril.
This restored motion picture is copyrighted by Sovexportfilm, 1976.
The music by Dmitri Shostakovich copyrighted 1942, 1945, 1947, 1954, 1955, 1958, 1962, 1967

I thought there was a 1950s version that already used music by Shostakovich. Maybe I recall incorrectly. I must confess I can't really remember the music used in the venerable Potemkin and October prints I saw in 1973 (or thereabouts).