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noelbotevera wrote:It's magnificent, a film about textures both emotional and visual. Gleaming cobblestones, cracked mirrors, flawed windowpanes, rough wood, rusted iron, frayed cloth, and above all and everyone the towering spires of London, done as a kind of watercolor Edwardian illustration (with plenty of grays and blacks)--one of the few cases where I thought digital effects more than justified their use. Johnny Depp doesn't so much belt the songs out in that tiresome Broadway manner as use them to worm his way into the character, his eyes tunneling not outwards at people but inwards, into his tortured soul, at his vision of what things should be.

And then he wiped the semen off the poster photo of Tim Burton and fell asleep in his bed of Jack Skellington figurines.

Michael wrote:"David E's arguement is too bitter to swallow. "

Which is why I'm SHOVING IT DOWN YOUR THROAT!

Michael wrote:It seems too "generalizing".

The operative term is seems.

Michael wrote:Growing up in a small Carhartt-wearing town between Manhattan and the Adirondacks, I attended and also got involved with musicals at local schools and community theaters. From my memory, there was a healthy share of straight men and gay men (I'm sure there were some closeteds) involving every production and no one really cared. I never detected the "fag stigma" attached to musicals. Art of any kind does not have a "fag stigma". Maybe it does in the Bible Belt but that's a tiny portion of the world.

The exception that proves the rule. I grew up in "liberal" and "sophisticated" New York City.

David Ehrenstein wrote:I grew up in "liberal" and "sophisticated" New York City.

"Provincial" and "sophomoric" NYC, you mean? Why are there so many songs about New York City? Is it that it's really that great of a place, or do New Yorkers not know that other cities exist?

It's like that great number from The Nervous Set

"I'm so sick of hearing songs about New York
I'm up to here
I'm up to there
I've had enough
of that old nostalgic guff
praising dear old Central Park
and the skyline after dark
Those Tin Pan Alley posts may start tearing their toupees,
But baby, don't you know that stuff's a bunch of old cliches.
The A Train's not romantic
and it drives me really frantic
when I hear them praising Mott St. in July
Another silly rumor is that Brooklyn's full of humor
and you're welcome to that Broadway Lullabye. . ."

etc.

or ... Sondheim from 1954

Once I hated this city
Now, it can't get me down
Slushy, humid and gritty
What a pretty town!

"What", thought I, "could be duller"
More depressing, less gay?
Now my favorite color
is gray!

You got your city, you got your gay reference, you got your Sondheim. Can we talk about "Sweeney Todd" now?

Belmondo wrote:You got your city, you got your gay reference, you got your Sondheim. Can we talk about "Sweeney Todd" now?

Go right ahead.

Magic Hate Ball wrote:

noelbotevera wrote:It's magnificent, a film about textures both emotional and visual. Gleaming cobblestones, cracked mirrors, flawed windowpanes, rough wood, rusted iron, frayed cloth, and above all and everyone the towering spires of London, done as a kind of watercolor Edwardian illustration (with plenty of grays and blacks)--one of the few cases where I thought digital effects more than justified their use. Johnny Depp doesn't so much belt the songs out in that tiresome Broadway manner as use them to worm his way into the character, his eyes tunneling not outwards at people but inwards, into his tortured soul, at his vision of what things should be.

And then he wiped the semen off the poster photo of Tim Burton and fell asleep in his bed of Jack Skellington figurines.

You got a problem wid dat?

justeleblanc wrote:

David Ehrenstein wrote:I grew up in "liberal" and "sophisticated" New York City.

"Provincial" and "sophomoric" NYC, you mean? Why are there so many songs about New York City? Is it that it's really that great of a place, or do New Yorkers not know that other cities exist?

Hey juste... one at a time, man! Why take on The Whole City of New York when you haven't even fully handled Ehrenstein?

Sincerely,

provincial and sophomoric Herr graf Otto ritter von Vernichtunger-Schreckawitzenstauffenblatt; NYC NY

noelbotevera wrote:

Magic Hate Ball wrote:

noelbotevera wrote:It's magnificent, a film about textures both emotional and visual. Gleaming cobblestones, cracked mirrors, flawed windowpanes, rough wood, rusted iron, frayed cloth, and above all and everyone the towering spires of London, done as a kind of watercolor Edwardian illustration (with plenty of grays and blacks)--one of the few cases where I thought digital effects more than justified their use. Johnny Depp doesn't so much belt the songs out in that tiresome Broadway manner as use them to worm his way into the character, his eyes tunneling not outwards at people but inwards, into his tortured soul, at his vision of what things should be.

And then he wiped the semen off the poster photo of Tim Burton and fell asleep in his bed of Jack Skellington figurines.

You got a problem wid dat?

Well, it can't be good for your posture.

HerrSchreck wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:

David Ehrenstein wrote:I grew up in "liberal" and "sophisticated" New York City.

"Provincial" and "sophomoric" NYC, you mean? Why are there so many songs about New York City? Is it that it's really that great of a place, or do New Yorkers not know that other cities exist?

Hey juste... one at a time, man! Why take on The Whole City of New York when you haven't even fully handled Ehrenstein?

Sincerely,

provincial and sophomoric Herr graf Otto ritter von Vernichtunger-Schreckawitzenstauffenblatt; NYC NY

Your next, Otto!

It may be my next, but it's your neck haw haw haw!

Notorious homophobe John Simon loves it.

Simon, who, for reasons that escape me, Ned Rorem likes personally, has "cleaned up his act" of late re: homophobia. A crack he made at the height of the AIDS pandemic rendered him persona non grata for many years.

Magic Hate Ball wrote:

noelbotevera wrote:

Magic Hate Ball wrote: And then he wiped the semen off the poster photo of Tim Burton and fell asleep in his bed of Jack Skellington figurines.

Jealousy won't get you nowhere. 0

You got a problem wid dat?

Well, it can't be good for your posture.

Jealousy won't get you nowhere.

David Ehrenstein wrote:Simon, who, for reasons that escape me, Ned Rorem likes personally, has "cleaned up his act" of late re: homophobia. A crack he made at the height of the AIDS pandemic rendered him persona non grata for many years.

What exactly did Mr. Simon say (or write)?

Close The Door, Raymond wrote:What exactly did Mr. Simon say (or write)?

Have a rummage here. The comment in question seems to be when he was:

overheard by about 30 people telling the actress Carrie Nye in a theatre lobby, "Homosexuals in the theater! My God, I can't wait until AIDS gets all of them!" By the way, this wasn't just a rumor--Simon admitted to the remark.

I'm stunned that John Simon likes it. I was expecting more damnation than praise. I'm a little more inclined to check it out now. Not to get snobbish, but it was the Burton holding me back. By the way, which cast recording is the best? I'm a Pattie Lupone fan, but I've wondered if the production with Angela Lansbury has better singing.

Jean-Luc Garbo wrote:I'm stunned that John Simon likes it. I was expecting more damnation than praise. I'm a little more inclined to check it out now. Not to get snobbish, but it was the Burton holding me back. By the way, which cast recording is the best? I'm a Pattie Lupone fan, but I've wondered if the production with Angela Lansbury has better singing.

Since I agree with your thoughts on Burton, and since I also love Patti LuPone, I'm going to venture my personal opinion that the original cast recording is best. For me, it's not Patti versus Angela; it's Len Cariou over George Hearn. Something in Len's voice (as also heard on the oc of "A Little Night Music") that really satisfies. And, Angela Lansbury adds the needed lighter touch which adds the ironic depth as you listen to it. Much as I love Patti - with her it is more attitude than humor.

On the concert version with Patti Lupone, Neil Patrick Harris does an incredibly gorgeous rendition of "Not While I'm Around."

Belmondo wrote:Much as I love Patti - with her it is more attitude than humor.

See, that's what I thought. It's a good point anyway. Having only ever seen Murder She Wrote, I never knew that Lansbury could sing. For that matter, I never knew that Neil Patrick Harris could sing! I'll go with both, but it's Cariou and Lansbury first.
Also, fwiw, Sondheim-lover Neil Gaiman loves it.

Jean-Luc Garbo wrote:

Belmondo wrote:Much as I love Patti - with her it is more attitude than humor.

See, that's what I thought. It's a good point anyway. Having only ever seen Murder She Wrote, I never knew that Lansbury could sing.

So you never had to watch The Pirates of Penzance as a kid and then face the horror of having to be in your school's end of year play based on it? (That's what growing up in Cornwall forces kids into!) Some people get all the breaks! (Luckily I always managed to get a role hidden out of sight in the chorus - though my parents seem to still remember my role as "orphan boy #12 banging empty gruel bowl" in the background of the Food, Glorious Food song from the school production of Oliver!)

Not being much of a musical fan, I never saw or heard the original, but I loved this film. It has some clunky moments towards the beginning, with a bit of trouble getting Sweeney to Mrs. Lovett's shop, but once he arrives there, it's all pretty much great. Burton does a nice job balancing the darkness with the sardonic humor.

Watching the stage play (Hearst/Lansbury), it becomes apparent that the movie isn't half as dark as the play. Where the dark tone of the play comes from the actual subject matter, the dark tone of the movie comes not from the subject matter but from the visual tone. In the play, every character is obviously suffering. Everyone is dirty and limping and wearing disgusting clothes, but in the movie it's not half as bad. Sweeney is a dark, dark play, and the movie isn't that dark. The play is also very funny at times, while the movie goes for a more serious tone, but also plays it down. It's odd. Gone are the holes in the clothes, the buggy whore on the street screaming for Todd to split her muff, gone is the Beadle twisting the neck of the small bird. Gone is all that, but hello desaturated colors (and characters)...

And hello great Argento-like gushes of blood.

Magic Hate Ball wrote:Watching the stage play (Hearst/Lansbury), it becomes apparent that the movie isn't half as dark as the play. Where the dark tone of the play comes from the actual subject matter, the dark tone of the movie comes not from the subject matter but from the visual tone. In the play, every character is obviously suffering. Everyone is dirty and limping and wearing disgusting clothes, but in the movie it's not half as bad. Sweeney is a dark, dark play, and the movie isn't that dark. The play is also very funny at times, while the movie goes for a more serious tone, but also plays it down. It's odd. Gone are the holes in the clothes, the buggy whore on the street screaming for Todd to split her muff, gone is the Beadle twisting the neck of the small bird. Gone is all that, but hello desaturated colors (and characters)...

Kept is the misanthropy, rape, paternal incest, serial throat cutting, and cannibalism.