Twilight Time / Redwind

[domino harvey]

Having now seen and enjoyed it on a seven dollar double-feature DVD, I would probably pick up Fright Night if it were reissued on Blu and there was a good deal brewing in conjunction with it, but I'm not sure I'd want to be around the internet when it happens to hear all the bellyachers who spent big buxx on the second-hand market start whining

[Jeff]

I'm not sure I'd want to be around the internet when it happens to hear all the bellyachers who spent big buxx on the second-hand market start whining

There will undoubtedly be whiners, but they won't have legitimate cause for complaint. Twilight Time always said these were three year licenses. After those three years, Twilight Time or another company would be free to bid for them again. Several of the early TT titles that went out of print are celebrating their third birthday this year, and many more will throughout 2015.

[BillWatkins]

Their 4 titles with the fastest sellout times are Christine, Night of the Living Dead, Body Double and Fright Night.

[EddieLarkin]

But the original licencing periods for Christine and Body Double will not expire next year, so it presumably cannot be them two.

[Noiradelic]

There will undoubtedly be whiners, but they won't have legitimate cause for complaint. Twilight Time always said these were three year licenses. After those three years, Twilight Time or another company would be free to bid for them again. Several of the early TT titles that went out of print are celebrating their third birthday this year, and many more will throughout 2015.

Well, there will at least be a little legitimate cause for complaint. Nobody knew at the time that TT relicensing titles was an option -- the impression given by their limited-edition business model was that once they were gone that was it. Presumably, Sony would've rereleased it themselves, but who knows how long that would've taken? That said, I don't have much sympathy for someone who forks over $200 for a Fright Night Blu-Ray, especially since someone who would do that presumably can afford to drop big bucks on single Blu title.

That 3+ years in, TT suddenly reveals that their limited editions aren't nearly as limited as they asserted feels like a cheat, though far from the first time a limited edition turned out to be not so limited.

[Gregory]

Long ago in the "business model" discussions I compared what TT is doing to what is familiar to those who regularly buy small-label vinyl, and here the analogy bears repeating. A limited "edition" doesn't mean it will be the only edition of its kind. When I see a vinyl pressing labeled "limited pressing of 1,000" or whatever, it may mean that when that sells out the label will decide to do another pressing, or just as likely that will be all there is. Likely the label doesn't know what will happen at the time they let the potential buyer know how many there will be in that first batch. Any conventional run of printings is limited in the sense that it could either be renewed or drop out of print at any time. Some are just more predictable than others. Some TT releases have sold out extremely quickly and caught some off guard, and by doing a new batch they're clearly trying to sell more to satisfy remaining demand.

What I find disappointing is that Sony would see 3,000 copies of something sell out so quickly but then not decide to do their own edition--a better release with distribution to the regular retailers--to see how many could sell. That's further confirmation that they really don't care about putting in any minimal effort to make money from their back catalog. But I guess we knew that already.
And it's too bad that there apparently won't be a chance to see a Criterion special edition of The Big Heat, as the market clearly supports newer and better editions of Lang films all the time (well except for MoC Blu-rays of the Indian Epic, I guess).

[Jeff]

Well, there will at least be a little legitimate cause for complaint. Nobody knew at the time that TT relicensing titles was an option -- the impression given by their limited-edition business model was that once they were gone that was it.

From at 2011 interview with Nick Redman:

In all honesty we cannot say that the studio will never reissue these titles in the future or that they won’t sublicense to another label down the line. What we can say is that won’t happen for a minimum of three years and likely longer, and even then it is very unlikely that the studio itself will do it. So only another sublicense is a possibility.

It makes sense that if the release was successful Twilight Time would try to sublicense it again themselves.

[domino harvey]

If they're smart they'll issue them with variant covers to catch the collectors all over again

[dwk]

Here is a big "Fuck You" from Twilight Time, to the people that have bought these sold out titles that are being re-issued

"Thanks for your input, but what we're doing is working, and in the case of the re-licensed titles, all will have something different to them, so they will be completely new editions. And it's also important for you to understand that we are not reissuing every sold out title, just a select few that we believe can be improved upon.

"All of the reissues will have extra features and be in some sense substantially different from the first edition. And in one case will be a brand new 4k restoration to boot!"

[domino harvey]

No, a smart business plan to sell the same limited release title back to the same customers

[Moe Dickstein]

How is that a fuck you? If you missed the first one, you can get something better, if you love the film and have the old one you can keep it as a collectable, or buy the new one and sell the old one, probably for a profit to people that want the first edition for whatever reason.

[What A Disgrace]

Well, I'll definitely get The Big Heat if its the one with the 4K master. This is the best "fuck you" ever.

[dwk]

How is that a fuck you? If you missed the first one, you can get something better, if you love the film and have the old one you can keep it as a collectable, or buy the new one and sell the old one, probably for a profit to people that want the first edition for whatever reason.

C'mon Moe, I know you are an apologist for TT/Redman, but you know that an improved release will devalue the first Blu. And besides the issue isn't the resale value, as I've no sympathy for the scalpers (and I don't really care about the new extras, as they'll probably end up being another Nick Redman/Julie Kirgo commentary.) The issue is people, fans of a film, dropping $35 on a limited edition title, only to have the same company rerelease said title two or three years later, once again as a limited edition, with a superior transfer.

[matrixschmatrix]

It's frustrating that Twilight Time pushes the limited run so hard- announcing how many copies are left, celebrating when they're sold out, etc- and then releases a better one a few years later. To me, it says that I shouldn't really listen to anything they try to sell me on. I mean, I would not be unhappy to get a better copy of The Big Heat, but I would be fairly annoyed to pay the same, grossly inflated price on it twice to the same company.

[FrauBlucher]

So let me get this straight. TT will re-license their titles every 3 years or so for re-release. And each one will be a little different (higher scan, new commentary, extra extras or whatever [can't wait till they go all Warner on us and start offering little nik-naks]). What makes that so damn special and collectible? Especially at their prices. This sounds all so familiar (except for the pricing).

[MichaelB]

So let me get this straight. TT will re-license their titles every 3 years or so for re-release. And each one will be a little different (higher scan, new commentary, extra extras or whatever [can't wait till they go all Warner on us and start offering little nik-naks]). What makes that so damn special and collectible? Especially at their prices. This sounds all so familiar (except for the pricing).

I don't think they're going to be relicensing everything by any means - just the titles that have sold unexpectedly well. I imagine the vast majority will remain limited to the original 3,000.

[captveg]

Would people rather they artificially keep rereleases barebones and outdated on the A/V when access/production of better presentation is available?

[vsski]

I feel that some people simply can't get beyond the fact that TT charges higher prices than other labels (or to be correct doesn't discount and uses primarily one sales channel) and no matter what the guys do, it will cause a backlash.

While I have no connection with TT, I see a lot of what they are doing being very similar to the soundtrack market including the "limited" edition run (which is where Mr. Redman came from). Like Gregory stated in his reply about the vinyl market, in the soundtrack market limited editions are by now almost the rule rather than the exception and once one is sold out another comes along in a few years because someone somewhere found a better source tape or discovered another cue not yet published or it has been long enough for the old title to be forgotten and a new bunch of collectors is craving for a re-issue. Nothing imo is ever limited to the extent that it will never appear again.

The way I looked at TT is that the two founders did this as an experiment not completely knowing what would happen at a time when no studio wanted to put these titles out on BD. And yes the market has changed since, but I would argue the relative success of TT contributed to the fact that we are seeing more back catalog titles published, if not by the studios than some other smaller specialty label (see Kino and the MGM titles as the most recent one).

And TT has adapted since starting. While the 3,000 number still seems to hold true for most titles, they realize that for some it wasn't enough - something I'm sure they didn't expect at the time. They already announced that The Blob 2 will have a run of 5,000 knowing this title will likely sell more and for some of the high demand titles that sold out they are putting out a new edition - and if that's even better than the old one, I for one am ok with that. If I already own the title and like the new extras enough I'll buy it, if not, I won't.

After all I see few complaints when CC reissues one of their older titles in a more stacked edition or with better video / audio (and not in all cases were their upgrades from DVD to BD, so I feel it's comparable to some extent).

[jindianajonz]

I would argue the relative success of TT contributed to the fact that we are seeing more back catalog titles published, if not by the studios than some other smaller specialty label

Agreed. Let's not forget that most of what they release are highly risky titles, and the model they've selected helps reduce that risk. By releasing them as Limited Edition, they help spur interested buyers into purchasing sooner rather than later. This has two benefits: Rather than sit on unsold stock, they more rapidly turn it into cash that can be used to release the next title, and they get more immediate feedback on what titles will sell and which ones will languish.

I hear people lamenting the poor sales of Naruse box, and can't help but wonder if a Twilight Time-esque model could have given it the extra oomph needed to make a follow-on set feasible. The high prices on the now OOP set certainly indicate that there's a market for it, so I can't help but feel the reason it performed poorly is because people felt comfortable putting off their purchases until later.

I think the main thing people need to keep in mind is that the alternative to TT releases isn't lower prices and greater availability, it's not having these titles at all.

[Drucker]

I would argue the relative success of TT contributed to the fact that we are seeing more back catalog titles published, if not by the studios than some other smaller specialty label

I hear people lamenting the poor sales of Naruse box, and can't help but wonder if a Twilight Time-esque model could have given it the extra oomph needed to make a follow-on set feasible. The high prices on the now OOP set certainly indicate that there's a market for it, so I can't help but feel the reason it performed poorly is because people felt comfortable putting off their purchases until later.

The Mizoguchi box selling out is certainly evidence you could be right!

[Arrow]

I would argue the relative success of TT contributed to the fact that we are seeing more back catalog titles published, if not by the studios than some other smaller specialty label

Agreed. Let's not forget that most of what they release are highly risky titles, and the model they've selected helps reduce that risk. By releasing them as Limited Edition, they help spur interested buyers into purchasing sooner rather than later. This has two benefits: Rather than sit on unsold stock, they more rapidly turn it into cash that can be used to release the next title, and they get more immediate feedback on what titles will sell and which ones will languish.

I hear people lamenting the poor sales of Naruse box, and can't help but wonder if a Twilight Time-esque model could have given it the extra oomph needed to make a follow-on set feasible. The high prices on the now OOP set certainly indicate that there's a market for it, so I can't help but feel the reason it performed poorly is because people felt comfortable putting off their purchases until later.

I think the main thing people need to keep in mind is that the alternative to TT releases isn't lower prices and greater availability, it's not having these titles at all.

Maybe I'm being cynical but I feel like the Naruse's OOP status made it more appealing to collectors than if it had stayed in print. Although that may have been your point.

[MichaelB]

If I remember rightly, it went OOP earlier than planned after remaining inventory was destroyed in the 2011 Sony DADC fire - so it suddenly became a sought-after collectors' item almost overnight.

[dwk]

After all I see few complaints when CC reissues one of their older titles in a more stacked edition or with better video / audio (and not in all cases were their upgrades from DVD to BD, so I feel it's comparable to some extent).

Not comparable, because Criterion's releases aren't limited, so they don't have that urgency attached to them that these soon to be reissued TT did.

[jindianajonz]

After all I see few complaints when CC reissues one of their older titles in a more stacked edition or with better video / audio (and not in all cases were their upgrades from DVD to BD, so I feel it's comparable to some extent).

Not comparable, because Criterion's releases aren't limited, so they don't have that urgency attached to them that these soon to be reissued TT did.

Tell that to people who rushed out to buy the Tatis after they went OOP but before it was announced that Criterion had retained the rights!

[dwk]

If I'm not mistaken, Criterion confirmed that they still had the Tatis a day or two after they went OOP. So people had plenty of time to cancel or return their orders. (Now, I'm the sucker that bought the Tati DVDs right after it was announced that StudioCanal had acquired them but before they went OOP/Criterion said they still had the DVD/Blu-ray rights.)