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He and I have had some colorful interactions. His argument is always 100% that if it was ever shown theatrically in widescreen, it should be widescreen, period. Never any artistic or competing consideration apart from that data point. I do not question that he's done a lot of good in other aspects of film preservation, but citing him as the be-all on AR is not a compelling argument in my eyes

Of course, by saying all this, I have all but ensured someone tells him about this convo...

Hah! It would be useful to put that in the liner notes (along with a scan of the printed evidence), but it would be easy and historically useful to include both ratios - even if one ratio's preferred, they anticipated the other being shown to a substantial audience. It's like the whole stereo and mono debate with older records - I know mono's usually the preferred mix (it certainly is for me), but I'd still make the original stereo available. Even if they didn't give two shits about it, they still put it out, it got an audience, and it's the only way to hear the music in that format without any historical revisionism.

Surely the most rational thing to do would be to include both A.R.s, though that would likely reduce the P.Q. somewhat unless they were on separate discs. Most films that were framed for both ratios look immeasurably better in Academy, at least from the early days of matted widescreen. Still, Baby Doll is one of my favorite Tennessee Williams adaptations and I'll be picking it up regardless.

I'm happy with "Baby Doll" but I was expecting - hoping Criterion to release it like "On The Waterfront". a multiple ratio release would have been great.
I remember having watched the WEB 1080 release and it was pretty good. Apparently, regarding the comment at blu-ray.com there is no X4 restoration or new restoration; thus I assume it will be the same quality than the WEB release; that said; perhaps I'm mistaken - I have to check the video file; but I thought that the WEB 1080 release was 1:33.

La Fièvre dans le sang aka "Splendor of the grass" is another one of my favorite Elia Kazan which I'm still waiting to be released on blu-ray. There is a "decent" WEB 1080 release but it could look better. There is a Spanish Blu-Ray but I think that's not totally legit (you can find it on amazon.es).
I'm in love with Natalie Wood so such movie is a must-have.

Rupert Pupkin wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:20 am I'm happy with "Baby Doll" but I was expecting - hoping Criterion to release it like "On The Waterfront". a multiple ratio release would have been great.
I remember having watched the WEB 1080 release and it was pretty good. Apparently, regarding the comment at blu-ray.com there is no X4 restoration or new restoration; thus I assume it will be the same quality than the WEB release; that said; perhaps I'm mistaken

It's from a "new 2021 HD master"

Why would Baby Doll be 1.37:1 but not A Face in the Crowd? Why was that one's widescreen ratio simply accepted without question?

domino harvey wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:22 am He and I have had some colorful interactions. His argument is always 100% that if it was ever shown theatrically in widescreen, it should be widescreen, period. Never any artistic or competing consideration apart from that data point. I do not question that he's done a lot of good in other aspects of film preservation, but citing him as the be-all on AR is not a compelling argument in my eyes

That's pretty disingenuous considering in his research he specifically points out the great many films that were shown in widescreen theatrically but were indeed composed at 1.37:1, and got caught in the changeover.
How Baby Doll looks on a master from 15 years ago is of little value to determine how it was originally composed. Just because it looks well framed doesn't mean there isn't additional side information that would allow a 1.85:1 framing to not be as tight as simply cropping the DVD would indicate.

This actually just happened with The Curse of Frankenstein. When it had its first Blu-ray release in 2012, it came in both 1.66:1 and 1.37:1 ratios. Many people pointed out that the latter must be correct because scalps were getting clipped in some shots of the 1.66:1 version. But with WBA's new release, it's shown that in the older restoration inexplicably there was a vertical stretch introduced which was pulling the whole frame upwards!

I'm finding those discussions about AR more and more fascinating considering how many releases have now shown how you can maintain a certain AR (x:1) while having very different info in the framings. Look for instance what was done on The Face of Mu Manchu, with one roll being zoomed in while still maintaining the same 2.35 AR. Compare the new Second Sight presentation of Dawn of the Dead's Argento Cut with the previous restoration. Or Il Generale della Rovere's US presentation vs the French one. And of course, there are the numerous Lakeshore titles released by Arrow that have the right ARs but are showing way too much info.

I didn't know this in the past and used to solely stick to "is it the right AR number or not ?" (1.37, 1.66, 1.85, etc) but have since learnt that you can get the AR right but the info in the framing wrong, and I'm always surprised not to see this kind of things picked up more often within these discussions. They thus seem like very theoretical discussions that are overlooking how a given movie can be presented at a given ratio with very different info into the frame, depending on how the extractions from the original elements have been performed.

Baby Doll was one of a handful of mid-50s films released on DVD in 4x3 by Warner almost two decades ago - Dial M for Murder, Kiss Me Kate, and Them! - plus a few others. Not to mention all the other errant ones from other studios like the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Sabrina, Hondo, etc. that were corrected for Blu.

EddieLarkin wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:49 amHow Baby Doll looks on a master from 15 years ago is of little value to determine how it was originally composed. Just because it looks well framed doesn't mean there isn't additional side information that would allow a 1.85:1 framing to not be as tight as simply cropping the DVD would indicate.

Spot-on point. When WA announced the aspect ratio for their BD release of While the City Sleeps, I was skeptical it could work after cropping the import DVD to the same ratio, but that was not the case at all - the BD has much more picture information on the side that isn't seen on the academy ratio DVD. (The import DVD now looks a bit awkwardly composed compared to the BD.)

I'm guessing it's become cost-prohibitive to put something out in various aspect ratios, which is why it isn't universally done. I'm sure people will continue to debate which is the preferred ratio, but if it became a common practice to release a film in all ratios that originally saw release, it would still save everyone the headache of someone griping about a film's unavailability in whichever given ratio.

I'm not sure it's purely cost-related. I can also imagine labels and studios gathering enough info to instead freaking pick one ratio and stick with it. While it might be historically understandable for some movies to be available on multiple ratios, decision-making people also need at some point to make the decision as to what is supposed to be the proper AR and framing of the movie they're releasing and not choosing instead to not choose.

Fifteen years ago it was common for telecines to be zoomed slightly for academy films or for the zoom to be applied for final Home Video master. At a minimum this was to clear the rounded corners at a max it was because they felt the film felt wrong/ too loose. The rationale was that theatrical projection of academy will spill at least that much to standard screen masking and keystoning.

If Baby Doll was zoomed 5% (a common choice) at either telecine or HV master, it would look excellent in academy, as the dvd does (because the top bottom framing is closer to the widescreen lines the camera operator was referencing on their ground glass whilst filming) but it would also look wrong cropped down to widescreen. Because now the cropping would be more severe than the vertical information that was framed for.

But with a full aperture scan that doesn’t have an old school zoom, it should look excellent in widescreen. I watched it last summer, the credits are certainly widescreen compliant and the camera work following actors vertically protects for widescreen, not for academy. Watching it I kept thinking it should be widescreen and I was toggling back and forth with my TVs settings during the first reel and settled on academy because cropping it was too much.

But in this instance of a new scan, academy framing probably wouldn’t look as good as it feels in the current dvd.

Camera movements are the biggest tell in my opinion, i.e. does the camera move to keep an object in the widescreen frame when it would have easily stayed in the Academy frame without movement? Such scenes tend to play perfectly in widescreen but awkwardly in Academy

L.A. wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:19 am Restored Doctor X in Spring 2021.

I just bought the Legends of Horror DVD box a couple of months ago so this one's my fault.

Amazon leaked one of the next round's titles, another entry in WAC's "... huh?" line:

Interesting. Anecdotally, when I had a YouTube movie channel, The Student Prince (with Lanza’s singing) was one of the most viewed, with dozens of comments about Lanza. So maybe he’s got more of a following than we think. If WA actually took that into account, rather than just using a spinning dartboard, is another question, though.

I guess we're never getting De Palma's Femme Fatale, huh?

senseabove wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:37 pm Amazon leaked one of the next round's titles, another entry in WAC's "... huh?" line:

WAC Facebook...
NEW 2021 1080p HD Master Sourced from 4K scan of original nitrate Technicolor negatives!
THE GREAT CARUSO (1951)
Run Time 109:00
Subtitles English SDH
Audio Specs MONO - English, DTS HD-Master Audio 2.0 - English
Aspect Ratio 1.37:1, 4 X 3
Product Color COLOR
Disc Configuration BD 50
Special Features: Documentary "Mario Lanza: Singing to the Gods"; Theatrical Trailer (HD)

Damn Yankees also announced.

... and Lewton’s Isle of the Dead!!!

Ribs wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:03 pm ... and Lewton’s Isle of the Dead!!!

This suddenly gives me hope for The Seventh Victim again

Glowingwabbit wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:17 pm

Ribs wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:03 pm ... and Lewton’s Isle of the Dead!!!

This suddenly gives me hope for The Seventh Victim again

Please God (or Devil)

If they do The Seventh Victim and I Walked with a Zombie, that would be awesome - along with Cat People those are my very favorite Lewton films, though that entire box set is deserving of an upgrade.

coming as well... Thundar the Barbarian The Complete Series