44 The Red Shoes

[jsteffe]

Here is my own, non-expert impression:

It depends on the source material and the encoding, but there should be some improvement regardless. The 4K resolution and HEVC encoding will help with detail and grain. Even though it is not HDR, I think the 4K disc THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY handles the grain better than the Blu-ray and am glad that I upgraded.

If the materials can support an HDR grade, you could see noticeably improved shadow and highlight detail. I love how the highlights gleam in many of the color and black-and-white 4K transfers that I've seen so far - it reminds me of good projection of a 35mm print. The wider color gamut should also benefit the color films depending on the materials.

I've found that the difference is not always blindingly obvious, but it's there and it adds to the impact of the viewing experience. Sometimes it is transformative.

I'm sold on 4K UHD and try to get it when I can.

I definitely will buy THE RED SHOES when it comes out, despite having the Blu-ray!

[senseabove]

Is My Fair Lady the only other technicolor film to have a UHD release so far? If we can use that as a benchmark and the caps-a-holic caps are anything to go by, the UHD bump is plainly visible (even surprisingly so), and those are sans-HDR, of course.

[yoloswegmaster]

Wizard of Oz was also released on 4K and that looks to be a great transfer.

[RitrovataBlue]

I was talking to the barista at my local coffee shop today. I was telling him about the CC announcements. He asked how much of an improvement would old black and white movies be in UHD from bluray. I told him you'll see a little bit of an upgrade. I was telling him about The Red Shoes and how I thought this would look noticeably better in UHD because of the brilliant technicolor. I have not upgraded my system, so I'm only going by what I'm hearing. Am I accurate in my assessment?

Mostly. I'll issue the standard caveat here that setup/equipment results seem widely variable in the UHD market. I personally use a TCL 55" LCD flat panel with Dolby Vision and a Sony UBP-x700 player. Both are relatively cheap for 4K tech. But in my experience the upgrade is *very* significant.

Black levels are much deeper and "truer" than is possible with BD, even on discs that don't use the HDR range (i.e. Kino's The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and LCQF's Possession). Fine detail is rendered much more clearly. Even in the SDR range, colors are generally deeper/richer than on BD.

But the biggest difference is usually seen in the HDR range. Black and white films benefit tremendously from HDR. Dr. Strangelove, with its extremely high contrast photography, looks absolutely stunning on UHD. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is a significant upgrade from and already excellent BD, with striking improvement in replicating textures and fine details like the pinstripes on characters' clothes or Stewart's sweat and stubble in the famous climax. That said, some films clearly look better on the medium than others; Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is a much bigger upgrade than It's a Wonderful Life.

Technicolor looks absolutely ravishing in HDR. The colors in The Wizard of Oz have a richness and range that BD couldn't possibly hope to replicate. The Ladykillers likewise looks extraordinary. Unfortunately, these are to date the only "3 strip" Technicolor films available on UHD.

We have a number of 1950s-1960s Eastmancolor films on UHD, though, and they look uniformly spectacular. Rear Window is especially beautiful on UHD, with the film's rich, contrast-heavy color palette showing off HDR's potential better than most films. The Ten Commandments and Lawrence of Arabia are also superb examples of the format's potential. 2001: A Space Odyssey may be the biggest single upgrade yet seen on the format; it alone looks good enough to justify upgrading.

[sailor]

Other Technicolor 4Ks that I own are (apologies if these aren't technically "Technicolor", I'm going based on era)
Spartacus
Rear Window
Vertigo
The Wizard of Oz
The Ten Commandments
The Bridge on the River Kwai

And they all look fantastic, so my hopes are high for The Red Shoes.

[EddieLarkin]

Is My Fair Lady the only other technicolor film to have a UHD release so far? If we can use that as a benchmark and the caps-a-holic caps are anything to go by, the UHD bump is plainly visible (even surprisingly so), and those are sans-HDR, of course.

No film made after 1955 was shot using 3 strip technicolor, which is what most people are referring to when they talk about technicolor films. My Fair Lady was shot on Eastman color negative, so the bump you're seeing has nothing to do with that. It was though shot on 65mm rather than 35mm, which of course is going to give huge benefits on UHD over BD. See also 2001, Lawrence of Arabia and Spartacus on UHD (the latter wasn't 65mm, but 8 perf 35mm which offers basically the same benefits).

I was talking to the barista at my local coffee shop today. I was telling him about the CC announcements. He asked how much of an improvement would old black and white movies be in UHD from bluray. I told him you'll see a little bit of an upgrade. I was telling him about The Red Shoes and how I thought this would look noticeably better in UHD because of the brilliant technicolor. I have not upgraded my system, so I'm only going by what I'm hearing. Am I accurate in my assessment?

Mostly. I'll issue the standard caveat here that setup/equipment results seem widely variable in the UHD market. I personally use a TCL 55" LCD flat panel with Dolby Vision and a Sony UBP-x700 player. Both are relatively cheap for 4K tech. But in my experience the upgrade is *very* significant.

Black levels are much deeper and "truer" than is possible with BD, even on discs that don't use the HDR range (i.e. Kino's The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly and LCQF's Possession). Fine detail is rendered much more clearly. Even in the SDR range, colors are generally deeper/richer than on BD.

The GBU 4K UHD uses SDR and Rec.709 so there's nothing about its blacks that couldn't be replicated on BD. The difference you're seeing is simply because Kino didn't do a shit job of transferring the movie to disc like they did when they released it on BD in 2017.

Here is my own, non-expert impression:

It depends on the source material and the encoding, but there should be some improvement regardless. The 4K resolution and HEVC encoding will help with detail and grain. Even though it is not HDR, I think the 4K disc THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY handles the grain better than the Blu-ray and am glad that I upgraded.

If the materials can support an HDR grade, you could see noticeably improved shadow and highlight detail. I love how the highlights gleam in many of the color and black-and-white 4K transfers that I've seen so far - it reminds me of good projection of a 35mm print. The wider color gamut should also benefit the color films depending on the materials.

I've found that the difference is not always blindingly obvious, but it's there and it adds to the impact of the viewing experience. Sometimes it is transformative.

I do find that UHD is talked down a lot in the sense that not all films will benefit from it, that it depends on the source material, or that for black and white it's less important, or there will be less benefit for smaller film formats like Technicscope or 16mm etc, and I don't think it's a good way to treat the format. These same arguements applied just as much to Blu-ray over DVD and were trotted out ad nauseam back in the day. Ultimately whilst in some rare instances it did prove true that a BD offered a very small or non-existant upgrade over DVD, in the end collectors by and large accepted that the vast majority of titles were worth buying, regardless of their source or age or format, even though the amount of "upgrade" would vary. And the same is true of UHD, I have yet to encounter one myself (I have over 250) that did not offer a real and true upgrade over the BD.

Ultimately, the format allows us to present films using far more advanced standards (PQ and DCI-P3/BT.2020 vs Gamma and Rec.709) than BD and you're going to experience the benefits of that regardless of the title. The more important distinction to make between the formats is the TV you're using to watch them. Unlike BD that could display its benefits on basically any 1080p TV, how a 4KTV handles PQ and DCI-P3/BT.2020 can vary hugely, and you really can run the risk with this format of only experiencing a small percentage of what it offers if you're feeding it into a crappy set.

[brundlefly]

Guess I'm going from waiting for Tales of Hoffmann to come out on blu to waiting for Tales of Hoffmann to come out on UHD.

[hearthesilence]

Tales of Hoffmann was released on pretty cheap Blu-ray in the UK years ago. (At least it may have been cheap for me - I got it while at Fopp in London, and on top of that, it may have been marked down for sale.)

[brundlefly]

Yeah, maybe I should've imported that one -- maybe still will -- but thought I'd read the restoration was one the estate had demanded SC allow Criterion to release. So I held out for that version of Hoffmann with their baubles and bobs. And maybe now it'll be in UHD!

Though who knows how good the Criterion UHDs will be? Will they botch the blacks in Mulholland Drive again? So I'll wait and check out reviews before I have triples of everything. Even if triples is best.

[swo17]

Even if triples is best.

Oh wow, thank you for bringing that into my life

[yoloswegmaster]

The Svet Shoes

[FrauBlucher]

Robert Harris... curious to see what the folks here think

[soundchaser]

I think Harris is largely untrustworthy on discs with HDR, and his comments here about black levels don’t make me feel otherwise. (Admittedly, I haven’t seen the disc yet.)

[EddieLarkin]

His comments about the blacks are not limited to the UHD, and since the Blu-ray is surely the same old Blu-ray previously available (as Mulholland Drive was), I doubt it's much to worry about.

[senseabove]

dvdbeaver

[senseabove]

I was holding my breath because the br.com caps seemed less than impressive, but even those scaled-down caps at dvdbeaver are pretty breathtaking...

[Finch]

caps a holic

[trobrianders]

My copy of the 4K UHD arrived today and I was prepared to be underwhelmed despite the glowing reviews this release has received from all quarters. Having already watched the 4K UHD of Mulholland Dr. and found it far too dark I was expecting more of the same but thankfully this release of The Red Shoes couldn't appear better to my eyes. I began by comparing my old Criterion Blu-ray with the new one supplied with the 4K release and found it to be identical which pleased me. But then I watched the 4K UHD disc through to the end and was blown away. Anyone who is hesitating about getting hold of this release should jump right in. It's fantastic.