criterionforum.org

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:22 am**

tenia wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:49 pm I've finalised that this morning, and my main article (in French) has been updated to include the findings : https://testsbluray.com/2021/05/08/rest ... echniques/

Is the MoC of "Conversation Piece" a confirmed Ritrovada restoration?

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:41 am**

I'd have to double check that again, as it's been a long time. I doubt I got the info from my hat, so it might have been explicited somewhere, but I don't think I have the MoC disc anymore (only the Gaumont) and the MoC disc might be a CSC Rome grading instead of Ritrovata. If somebody has the possibility to check this one, please do !

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:31 pm**

The MOC disc looks like the caps on caps a holic, and definitely not like the Gaumont disc.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:59 pm**

We know they do, the question is whether I'm correctly attributing the master used by MoC to Ritrovata or if it has been done elsewhere.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:00 pm**

I promise I read through your entire article and could not make out a word of it! I can check the disc credits when I get home.

Posted: **Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:44 pm**

Drucker wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:00 pmI promise I read through your entire article and could not make out a word of it!

If you mean the section about Conversation Piece exactly, it reads as : "Interesting case : the movie was released in 2012 in the US from an older HD master, then in 2013 through Gaumont via an Eclair restoration, and then in the UK through Eureka via a Ritrovata restoration. All 3 gradings are totally different from each other".

Drucker wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:00 pmI can check the disc credits when I get home.

If you can have a look either at the beginning or at the end of the movie, there might be a lab text panel expliciting who did what (as MoC's booklets don't offer this kind of tech details).

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:07 am**

tenia wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 6:44 pm If you can have a look either at the beginning or at the end of the movie, there might be a lab text panel expliciting who did what (as MoC's booklets don't offer this kind of tech details).

The MoC Blu does not have any restoration/lab credits. Personally, it doesn't scream like a Ritrovata restoration. The whole presentation looks a bit flat and dull compared to their usual work.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:26 am**

Thanls for the feedback. It won't change much to my listing as it's listed under the Eclair section and the Gaumont master definitely is from Eclair, but yeah, the MoC one might be from CSC Rome or Cineteca di Bologna, who kinda grade like Ritrovata but not exactly, it's mostly very dull and creamy.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:56 pm**

Yep confirmed this morning on my end, too. Opens with the original title cards/credits. No restoration notes to speak of.

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:25 pm**

The 2016 MoC dual format release of Luchino Visconti's CONVERSATION PIECE (GRUPPO DI FAMIGLIA IN UN INTERNO) was likely not from a new restoration... It seems that came later with the restauro debuting in 2019...

La Festa del Cinema di Roma, giunta alla 14esima edizione, (17 al 27 ottobre 2019).ha visto una forte presenza del Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia presieduto da Felice Laudadio: tre nuovi restauri realizzati dalla Cineteca Nazionale...

I tre restauri sono: "Il mestiere delle armi" di Ermanno Olmi (2001), "Il manoscritto del principe" di Roberto Andò (2000), "Gruppo di famiglia in un interno" di Luchino Visconti (1974): un classico di un grande autore e due film relativamente recenti, realizzati nel XXI secolo ma già bisognosi di interventi di restauro e conservazione

The details of the restoration...

Il restauro è stato realizzato nel 2019 dal Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia-Cineteca Nazionale a partire dal negativo originale 35mm e dal negativo sonoro ottico messi a disposizione da Minerva Pictures Group Srl. Tutte le lavorazioni sono state realizzate presso il laboratorio Studio Emme di Roma. La supervisione al restauro del suono è stata realizzata a cura di Federico Savina.

Checking the coffee table book on the film published in 2013, there is however a mention that Fendi were delighted to support the restoration of the film by Minerva Pictures & Raro Video then, although the extent & methodology of that earlier process is unclear...

Posted: **Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:59 pm**

Wait, so there's a FOURTH presentation of it ? How much of a cash cow is Conversation Piece supposed to be to yield that many works on roughly 15 years ?
This being written, I never had a clear timeline between the presentations used by Gaumont and MoC, they just looked very different from each other, and then again from the Raro disc. Possibly, the 2019 work is different too, and good luck trying to guess how the movie was supposed to look...

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:48 am**

Well, it looks like Claire Denis’ Chocolat got the Éclair blue rinse. Awful shame, it had such a beautiful warmth and there’s just nothing there now. It doesn’t look quite as dry and dark in Janus’ trailer for the theatrical release of the restoration. Criterion could give Denis or Agnès Godard a chance to goose the color balance before their physical release, but I’m not hopeful.

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:41 am**

It seems different than the previous release, judging by Beaver caps, but it bears nothing of the Eclair touch in itself (steely blues, strong contrast, orange-y yellows). I was actually pleasantly surprised to see that when I received the BFI disc for review.

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:22 am**

Caps of the HDR layer of Le chat qui fume's Get Out Your Handkerchiefs / Préparez vos mouchoirs 4K UHD. Warning: Large file sizes!
The film was graded by Éclair. As I already mentioned, the DV layer of the film is vastly different than HDR10 and SDR. Colors are rich and saturated as they probably should be, but only in SDR and HDR10 and NOT in Dolby Vision. The DV layer shows significantly less vibrant colors than in HDR10. In DV, it looks as if the film received a bleach bypass.

Spoiler

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:52 am**

Those aren't downconverted to SDR, right ?

Posted: **Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:38 pm**

tenia wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:52 am Those aren't downconverted to SDR, right ?

No, they aren't These are directly taken from the HDR10 layer and are accurate to what I'm seeing on my TV. They're in BT.2100 but the same color gamut as BT.2020

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2024 7:51 am**

Thanks for the confirmation, I just wanted to be sure.
Awful Eclair'd presentation in any case. I'm surprised Le chat qui fume didn't color-correct it, as they're well aware of such signatures and dislike them too.

Posted: **Mon May 06, 2024 2:09 pm**

tenia wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 7:51 am Thanks for the confirmation, I just wanted to be sure.
Awful Eclair'd presentation in any case. I'm surprised Le chat qui fume didn't color-correct it, as they're well aware of such signatures and dislike them too.

No problem regarding the confirmation

Maybe TF1 prohibited them but then again we should ask ourselves why they even bothered with licensing this master if it’s that tampered with.

Posted: **Wed May 08, 2024 10:12 pm**

The Name of the Rose has slight hints of questionable grading according to tenia's review: https://testsbluray.com/2024/05/04/test ... e-la-rose/

I agree but it's thankfully not too intrusive: The UHD is a BD-100, has DV MEL and a so-so encode. The master itself is by owners of the film, Constantin Film Germany but they outsourced the lab work to Cine Post Production who probably did the restoration and grading. TF1 are also credited.

Cine Post Production employed grain management in the vein of The Pianist but not as strong as on that film. Grain is present but it's too thin and simply looks inorganic. The OCN shots are the best obviously but the opticals I saw suffered quite a bit. I really have no idea why Constantin, a company located in Munich didn't just give the job to Arri Munich - a much more competent party.

Color grading is largely fine and appropriate but occasionally greenish-turquoise in some of the skies. It's thankfully not permanent as gamma levels are good but it's not pleasant to look at. Whites in snow and more overcast skies are largely white but lean ever-so-slightly towards green when you look closely. Other, more neutral and earthy colors look good.

The encode itself has to manage the grain management which I'm sure is baked into the master and not a fault of the encode as the managed grain resolves well. Highlights, such as the greenish skies and the brighter, appropriately white ones are clipped and lack detail. Less bright shots and image areas aren't a problem.

Below BDInfo and HDR caps (large file sizes):

Spoiler

DISC INFO:

Disc Title: The Name Of The Rose
Disc Label: LE NOM DE LA ROSE
Disc Size: 94,871,108,764 bytes
Protection: AACS2
Extras: Ultra HD, 50Hz Content
BDInfo: 0.7.5.6

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00004.MPLS
Length: 2:11:56.083 (h

s.ms)
Size: 83,911,687,488 bytes
Total Bitrate: 84.80 Mbps

(*) Indicates included stream hidden by this playlist.

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 73076 kbps 2160p / 24 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / HDR10
* MPEG-H HEVC Video 88 kbps 1080p / 24 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 @ Level 5.1 @ High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / Dolby Vision

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
DTS-HD Master Audio French 1227 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1227 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1152 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 1306 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1306 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1152 kbps / 16-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 4435 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 4435 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio French 384 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 384 kbps / DN -27dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics French 0.238 kbps
Presentation Graphics French 19.261 kbps

Caps:

Spoiler

Posted: **Thu May 09, 2024 7:37 am**

Thanks for the detailed feedback about the UHD. I've only covered the BD as I'm not equipped for 4k, but kept wondering how much of the BD issues is disc-related and how much is source-related. The BD encode is quite rubbish, filled with cycles of heavily blocky frames interspesed with 1 correct frame, so there's that anyway, but I was quite certain the source was grain managed to begin with on many shots, as there also were shots with grain (despite being poorly encoded). I did wonder however, since several shots had only a very light sheer of grain, if those shots were looking more natural on the UHD thanks to the extra resolution and possibly better encode, or if this was solely the result of having attenuated the grain.

Posted: **Thu May 09, 2024 8:02 am**

tenia wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 7:37 am Thanks for the detailed feedback about the UHD. I've only covered the BD as I'm not equipped for 4k, but kept wondering how much of the BD issues is disc-related and how much is source-related. The BD encode is quite rubbish, filled with cycles of heavily blocky frames interspesed with 1 correct frame, so there's that anyway, but I was quite certain the source was grain managed to begin with on many shots, as there also were shots with grain (despite being poorly encoded). I did wonder however, since several shots had only a very light sheer of grain, if those shots were looking more natural on the UHD thanks to the extra resolution and possibly better encode, or if this was solely the result of having attenuated the grain.

I haven’t checked the BD but when speaking from your review and description alone the UHD is definitely preferable. Even though the 4K encode isn’t optimal , it’s much better than what’s on the BD with the cyclic blocking pattern nowhere to be found. “Only” classic macroblocking in some of the highlights. I don’t regret my purchase as I never got an old BD of the film and Warner US either don’t have the rights any more or wouldn’t care anyway.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2024 10:42 pm**

The Dreamers has been Ritrovata’d for its new 4K restoration: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=67

(Thankfully) it’s not a full-on disaster and maybe quite carefully graded according to the DP’s suggestions but, as always, their signature raised blacks haunt many of these wonderful shots.

Posted: **Mon May 27, 2024 12:45 pm**

Farewell My Concubine in 4K by Carlotta. The master has a yellow touch in exteriors but it isn't a blanket tint. Blacks are deep, reds lush and saturated and whites are also present.
Hiventy are credited in the menu but no mentioning whether they did the grade. It could also be a Ritrovata Hong Kong one based on the look but this is definitely one of the lesser-affected films.

HDR caps:

Spoiler

Posted: **Mon May 27, 2024 2:31 pm**

I received this one a few days ago but have still to look at it; it might be that the yellow touch is related to one of Hiventy's signature, which tends to go towards yellow (as seen on Red Sonja or Cat's Eyes or Le pacte des loups).

Posted: **Mon May 27, 2024 2:51 pm**

tenia wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 2:31 pm I received this one a few days ago but have still to look at it; it might be that the yellow touch is related to one of Hiventy's signature, which tends to go towards yellow (as seen on Red Sonja or Cat's Eyes or Le pacte des loups).

I have Red Sonja and Le pacte des loups and in my opinion, Farewell is nowhere near as “in your face” yellow as those two, meaning it’s less bright, saturated and intrusive.

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