Histoire(s) du Cinema
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
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planetjake
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Jeff LeVine
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:27 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
Shipped! Our long collective nightmare has finally ended. Finally I can get excited again about actually watching the movie / movies.
Last edited by Jeff LeVine on Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
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carax09
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:22 am
- Location: This almost empty gin palace
Sorry, but that's not over until january 2009.domino harvey wrote:mine too! Our long national nightmare is finally overneal wrote:My Amazon.fr box just shipped.domino harvey wrote:I just got a email from Amazon.fr saying it wouldn't be shipping but then Amazon.fr still lists that I should expect it to arrive in two weeks so who knows what's happening over there
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Oedipax
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:48 pm
- Location: Atlanta
I don't want to spoil the party, but this potentially unsettling bit comes from Adrian Martin, posted to the Godard listserv:
As many have said before, we won't know until we have it in our hands (and in our region-free PAL/NTSC converting DVD players...)I have heard this rumour (unconfirmed) about the elusive (but now in Paris shops) HISTOIRES DVD from a European friend:
"we have the idea that this box, which is in the shops now, is the french one, only french,
and that the one with the subtitles will arrive later,"
Anybody know either way for sure yet??
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Max von Mayerling
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:02 pm
- Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
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tavernier
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
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Tom Peeping
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:32 pm
- Location: Paris
- Contact:
To put it straight (I just checked the discs on my player) :
- The 8 episodes of "Histoire(s) du Cinéma" DO have optionnal english subs.
- The "2x50 ans de cinéma français" film DOES NOT have english subs.
- The 1988 JLG Cannes Press Conference is in English (w. optionnal French subs)
- The 1997 JLG Cannes Press Conference is in French (and DOES NOT have English subs)
- The 8 episodes of "Histoire(s) du Cinéma" DO have optionnal english subs.
- The "2x50 ans de cinéma français" film DOES NOT have english subs.
- The 1988 JLG Cannes Press Conference is in English (w. optionnal French subs)
- The 1997 JLG Cannes Press Conference is in French (and DOES NOT have English subs)
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Oedipax
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:48 pm
- Location: Atlanta
Thanks, Tom - I'm glad that's cleared up once and for all (and mostly to the satisfaction of those of us who've been waiting all this time). Kind of a shame about 2x50 ans de cinema francais, but I've got a low quality copy with English subs, I suppose I could transcribe those and make a custom copy sometime.
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jorencain
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:45 am
Also from the Godard listserv:
I bought the DVD boxset two days ago. A quick answer: there are English subtitles on "Histoire(s)", but NOT on "Deux fois cinquante ans de cinéma français" or the press conferences.
About the subtitles on "Histoire(s)":
The only thing that's subtitled is JLG's voiceover. Now of course that is a great shame! This said, the translation is very good.
Being a subtitler myself, I have to admit that the perspective of subtitling "Histoire(s)" would be a nightmare. Titles, puns, JLG's commentary and film soundtracks all at once... The trouble is 1) there's only so much the human eye can read, and 2) subtitles are a nuisance on the image. As it is, it is already problematic to put the English subtitles at a place where it is as practical as possible. When a title exists and JLG speaks, it would be very hard to subtitle both what is being said and what is to be seen. There would simply be no time to read the subtitles, unless one stops the frame. It can already a problem when subtitling "normal" films.
Now that's one thing, but I wonder why the film clips in French haven't been translated at all, and why the titles are not translated, even when no one speaks? The answer would be "consistency", since it would seem odd to translate them at times and not at others, when the image/sound combination is already too "crowded." It seems a poor argument to me.
The goal of subtitling is not to translate literally, since it is impossible (you read slower than you can perceive oral dialogue). It is always an adaptation. Adapting a work such a "Histoire(s)" is a unique task, maybe an impossible one. Nonetheless, according to me, not enough thought has been put into getting some work done here. For the conception of a DVD, the publishing company has the final say (or the filmmaker, if s/he can be involved in the process: see a reproduction of English subtitles to "Soft & Hard" in "Forever Godard," if memory serves). It is in relationship with a translator, often through a subtitling company, and gives instructions regarding the subtitling. Here, this step has obviously been skipped.
I think I've read (maybe on this list?) that the Spanish edition has subtitles in different colours (titles, voiceover, etc.): this doesn't solve the problem of space, but is maybe a better solution (provided you understand Spanish, of course). Maybe a detailed booklet in English would have been a good idea? As it is, the English subtitles translate what JLG physically says; you have to understand yourself what other people say in French and what is written on the screen... To me, that's a mess, for which Gaumont is to be held responsible. I doubt that the translator hasn't asked for instructions: even if he didn't, Gaumont should have taken a look at the finished product and found a better way to adapt this masterpiece to English-speaking viewers!
As for "Deux fois cinquante ans", it is utterly absurd that no English subtitles are provided, especially since it was produced by the British Film Institute! Even if we put aside the fact that subtitles were written at the time (a given translation is not automatically attached to the work it accompanies; however, it shouldn't be difficult to get hold of these subtitles), it is perfectly possible to ask for a new subtitling... Provided one pays someone for it! Once again, Gaumont did not rise to the occasion and thought it useless to translate this film. Shame on them!!! (even though as a French viewer, I'm quite happy with the boxset.)
I bought the DVD boxset two days ago. A quick answer: there are English subtitles on "Histoire(s)", but NOT on "Deux fois cinquante ans de cinéma français" or the press conferences.
About the subtitles on "Histoire(s)":
The only thing that's subtitled is JLG's voiceover. Now of course that is a great shame! This said, the translation is very good.
Being a subtitler myself, I have to admit that the perspective of subtitling "Histoire(s)" would be a nightmare. Titles, puns, JLG's commentary and film soundtracks all at once... The trouble is 1) there's only so much the human eye can read, and 2) subtitles are a nuisance on the image. As it is, it is already problematic to put the English subtitles at a place where it is as practical as possible. When a title exists and JLG speaks, it would be very hard to subtitle both what is being said and what is to be seen. There would simply be no time to read the subtitles, unless one stops the frame. It can already a problem when subtitling "normal" films.
Now that's one thing, but I wonder why the film clips in French haven't been translated at all, and why the titles are not translated, even when no one speaks? The answer would be "consistency", since it would seem odd to translate them at times and not at others, when the image/sound combination is already too "crowded." It seems a poor argument to me.
The goal of subtitling is not to translate literally, since it is impossible (you read slower than you can perceive oral dialogue). It is always an adaptation. Adapting a work such a "Histoire(s)" is a unique task, maybe an impossible one. Nonetheless, according to me, not enough thought has been put into getting some work done here. For the conception of a DVD, the publishing company has the final say (or the filmmaker, if s/he can be involved in the process: see a reproduction of English subtitles to "Soft & Hard" in "Forever Godard," if memory serves). It is in relationship with a translator, often through a subtitling company, and gives instructions regarding the subtitling. Here, this step has obviously been skipped.
I think I've read (maybe on this list?) that the Spanish edition has subtitles in different colours (titles, voiceover, etc.): this doesn't solve the problem of space, but is maybe a better solution (provided you understand Spanish, of course). Maybe a detailed booklet in English would have been a good idea? As it is, the English subtitles translate what JLG physically says; you have to understand yourself what other people say in French and what is written on the screen... To me, that's a mess, for which Gaumont is to be held responsible. I doubt that the translator hasn't asked for instructions: even if he didn't, Gaumont should have taken a look at the finished product and found a better way to adapt this masterpiece to English-speaking viewers!
As for "Deux fois cinquante ans", it is utterly absurd that no English subtitles are provided, especially since it was produced by the British Film Institute! Even if we put aside the fact that subtitles were written at the time (a given translation is not automatically attached to the work it accompanies; however, it shouldn't be difficult to get hold of these subtitles), it is perfectly possible to ask for a new subtitling... Provided one pays someone for it! Once again, Gaumont did not rise to the occasion and thought it useless to translate this film. Shame on them!!! (even though as a French viewer, I'm quite happy with the boxset.)
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Gropius
- Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:47 pm
Considering that American and British releases routinely fail to provide subtitles in any other language, I don't see why a French company should be pilloried for not making sufficient concessions to English as the dominant language of globalisation.jorencain wrote:Once again, Gaumont did not rise to the occasion and thought it useless to translate this film. Shame on them!!!
Extra-complex subtitling is presumably expensive/time-consuming to produce, and perhaps the prospect of additional international sales wasn't a strong enough incentive to go all out.
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s_mac_k
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:55 am
- Contact:
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accatone
- Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 12:04 pm
I must admit i am more interested in the image quality! I have a bootleg with almost everything subtitled but then half of the screen is layered with typography - which is not too easy/nice to look at. I think it is almost impossible to read the subs accordingly to the image - not because of the quantity of words but of their importance juxtaposed to the image and sound. In some episodes the subs change so fast, its crazy…
I mentioned before that a dubbed version would be nice (imo)!
For me the best thing is to stick with the ECM translation and maybe the fairly complete table of references for Histoire(s) du cinéma by Celine Scemama. I watched the Histoire(s) episode after episode with a short reading/introduction of those references before each episode- and think that this is best way to watch them.
I mentioned before that a dubbed version would be nice (imo)!
For me the best thing is to stick with the ECM translation and maybe the fairly complete table of references for Histoire(s) du cinéma by Celine Scemama. I watched the Histoire(s) episode after episode with a short reading/introduction of those references before each episode- and think that this is best way to watch them.
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s_mac_k
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:55 am
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I would like to see the subtitles as seperate choices, much as you can choose different languages, you can choose to read Godard text, screen text, captions etc. And speed of subtitles is no problem after spending the 90's reading hong kong videos... And I believe text is so important with Godard, equal to the picture and the sound, I have read that his favourite presentation of histoire (at least at the time) was perhaps the ECM soundtrack box due to it's text/image presentation.
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planetjake
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sevenarts
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:22 pm
- Contact:
I got mine tonight too, and watched the first episode so far. The good news is the transfer looks great, I didn't notice any obvious combing or anything like that (though I grant it can be hard to tell considering the nature of the material). Bad news is of course the incomplete English subtitling. Only Godard's voice is subtitled, and even then there are a few gaps where he is not subtitled, or even more bizarrely, where the subtitling begins in the middle of a sentence.
Still, I managed to follow along pretty well, understood at least some of the intertitles without translation, and I found that the subtitling became a bit denser and more complete in the latter half of this episode, as both Godard spoke more and the translator followed him more closely. Overall, I'm just very happy that I can now see this even in a form I can't fully understand, and I'm looking forward to watching the rest.
Still, I managed to follow along pretty well, understood at least some of the intertitles without translation, and I found that the subtitling became a bit denser and more complete in the latter half of this episode, as both Godard spoke more and the translator followed him more closely. Overall, I'm just very happy that I can now see this even in a form I can't fully understand, and I'm looking forward to watching the rest.
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The Fanciful Norwegian
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:24 pm
- Location: Teegeeack
If the subtitles are the same as what I saw here in St. Louis, they actually get worse in later episodes -- about a third of the monologue at the end of Fatale beauté is unsubtitled and almost none of Alain Cuny's dialogue (I forget which episode that was) is translated. I know the mix of narration, dialogue and onscreen text would be overwhelming for any translator, but IIRC these scenes are mostly just spoken dialogue and the occasional caption, so it's incredibly frustrating. This was high up on my "to buy" list, but at the risk of sounding philistine, the subtitle issue has pushed it far to the back-burner.
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Oedipax
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:48 pm
- Location: Atlanta
I agree. At least, I'm going to wait and see what (if anything) Artificial Eye has in store. It'd be one thing if the package weren't quite as pricy as it is ordering from Amazon.fr or fnac, but for that kind of money I'd rather just wait.The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:at the risk of sounding philistine, the subtitle issue has pushed it far to the back-burner.