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Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:26 am**

I'm about to order 'Late Spring'. Could someone just confirm that the Criterion edition translates the lines from the Noh Drama? I can't believe it doesn't but just in case....

I'd also be interested in hearing about any other Japanese movies that feature glimpses of Noh performances (the only other one I can think of right now is a brief scene in Mizoguchi's '47 Ronin'). This is for a colleague of mine who teaches an International Baccalaureate course in Drama. Noh and Kabuki are on the syllabus but he doesn't have any DVD resources for the former.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:16 am**

There's an extended sequence of Noh in the middle of Kurosawa's Kagemusha. Unfortunately, the Criterion edition doesn't subtitle it.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:13 pm**

Naruse's "Song Lantern" is all about Noh performance (and performance ethics) -- and is one of his most beautiful films (shot by Asakazu Nakai, it prefigures some techniques that will later turn up in Kurosawa's films). No DVD, alas. The Japan Foundation has a subbed print, however.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:55 pm**

Just missed 'Song Lantern' at the London NFT. What a pity - it looks intriguing.

Thanks for the recommendations so far, though. I have Kagemusha on DVD but I'd forgotten about the Noh scene.

I'd still be interested in knowing whether the Criterion of Late Spring subtitles the Noh performance as I don't know which version of the film that clip I referred to earlier is taken from. Likewise, the Tartan edition. As I'm in the UK I have the choice of purchasing either, though the Tartan 'Noriko Trilogy' seems to have been poorly received and the screenshots on DVD Beaver look too dark to me.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:14 pm**

I think nobody is answering your question because it was already answered just a few posts earlier in this thread. Yes, the Criterion edition provides subtitles for the Noh scene.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:43 pm**

Thanks for pointing that out. To compound matters, I only watched Kagemusha about 10 days ago and then promptly forgot about the Noh scene in that as well.

I think I'd better go and have a lie down.

Posted: **Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:25 pm**

Interesting to note that the character of Noriko seems to grow older and more mature throughout the "Noriko" trilogy". In this, she is scared of commitment. In Early Summer, she wants to get married, just on her own terms, in Tokyo Story she would be a few years older and already widowed. She is mature enough to know that she must accompany her in-laws and knows the value of life already.

Also, I just wanted to note that first seeing Noriko in her very elaborate wedding dress was one of the most emotionally devastating scenes I've ever seen. Much more powerful than any scare tactic in some horror film.

Posted: **Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:33 pm**

Macintosh wrote:Also, i just wanted to note that first seeing Noriko in her very elaborate wedding dress was one of the most emotionally devastating scenes I've ever seen. Much more powerful than any scare tactic in some horror film.

A lot of people don't know this, but Noriko actually stole that dress.

Posted: **Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:44 pm**

Steven H wrote:A lot of people don't know this, but Noriko actually stole that dress.

I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you're being facetious or not.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:16 am**

I just watched this as my first Ozu (don't know what I'll check out next) and really liked it, but am curious whether or not

Spoiler

Shukichi dies at the end. It would appear that would put further emphasis on Ozu's prevalent theme of general change.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:03 am**

Nothing in the film suggests the ending suggested in your spoiler. It is sufficient that the father is emotionally wasted by the change in circumstances (and uncertain as to whether or not he took the right course of action).

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:22 am**

Michael Kerpan wrote:Nothing in the film suggests the ending suggested in your spoiler. It is sufficient that the father is emotionally wasted by the change in circumstances (and uncertain as to whether or not he took the right course of action).

It was just in how his head collapsed so suddenly as he was sitting in the chair in the second to last shot. Glad this isn't the situation though; Ozu really makes us care about these characters. If this speculation were true, I don't think I'd like the movie as much. It would be far more contrived, and putting to much emphasis on a single theme. Thanks for clearing it up.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:29 am**

The father is not only upset, he is also rather drunk. He manages to sustain concentration long enough to accomplish a distracting task (peeling), but (when finished), his feelings take command.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:38 am**

Michael Kerpan wrote:The father is not only upset, he is also rather drunk. He manages to sustain concentration long enough to accomplish a distracting task (peeling), but (when finished), his feelings take command.

That makes good sense. Could, then, the lack of cheeriness have something to do with the lack of sake in the second half? I mean, aside from the whole marriage thing, it seemed to me that even when Noriko insulted that man, she said it with a straight face. With a smile! He didn't think anything of it because of the sake. At first, I was a bit offput by how the characters expressed their emotions, particularly Noriko, who seemed like she'd smile even if she were to get hit by a car, but as soon as actual internal conflict arose, the tone changed, and I really liked that. Specifically, how Ozu used the Noh play as a sort of spiritual transition, as among other thing, we are introduced to who will very likely be the father's next wife.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:30 am**

Plenty of sake in the second half. Think of the next to the last scene -- with the Father and Noriko's friend at the bar.

The Father isn't (in fact) getting married to the lady seen at the Noh play.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:34 am**

Michael Kerpan wrote:Plenty of sake in the second half. Think of the next to the last scene -- with the Father and Noriko's friend at the bar.

The Father isn't (in fact) getting married to the lady seen at the Noh play.

Okay, that is alright.

Is he getting married to anyone? Or just not her?

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 am**

James, maybe you should watch one more time. Perhaps with the commentary? Just a thought.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 am**

The Father won't be marrying anyone -- not in the foreseeable future depicted in the film.

I concur that it might be wise to re-watch this extremely re-watchable film. It really requires that one pay very close attention to very tiny cues.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:41 am**

Matango wrote:James, maybe you should watch one more time. Perhaps with the commentary? Just a thought.

I was thinking of doing that, but the reviewer at DVDTimes says the commentary is overly academic for such a simplistic movie.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:45 am**

Ouch! Late Spring is anything but simplistic. And the commentary is aimed more at Ozu first-timers than established fans. At least that's what I thought when I listened to it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:46 am**

james wrote:I was thinking of doing that, but the reviewer at DVDTimes says the commentary is overly academic for such a simplistic movie.

Does the reviewer really call Late Spring "a simplistic movie"? If so, you'd better check some alternate reviews. It is a remarkably rich and complex film (that gets moreso with revisitation). Commentaries always need to be taken with a grain of salt, but may be helpful -- but they are no substitute for careful watching on one's own.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:53 am**

Here's what he said:

I’m not fond of Criterion’s academic commentaries in general and find them particularly annoying on Ozu films. Peña, the program director of the New York Society of Lincoln Center, attempts to define and analyse Ozu’s technique and message and it is doomed to appear foolishly over-analytical in complete contrast to Ozu’s transparency and simplicity. No amount of talking around the style is going to make you see anything that isn’t already patently obvious in the film itself. You might find some nuggets of the historical and cultural backgrounds somewhere in this commentary (I really couldn’t listen to more than half an hour of this without being thoroughly bored), but more often it’s explanatory in its interpretation of the thoughts and feelings of the characters. Personally, I find this kind of commentary worthless in an Ozu film.

Either way, I'll probably end up rewatching it, just not at the time being. I'm trying to make my way through the entire Criterion Collection, and see how many I can watch during my nearly two month summer break. I'll have to finish Tokyo-ga because I'm a completeist, and since I rented the set from the library, I'm going to watch that tonight, because I have five other Criterion titles from the library to watch including Seven Samurai which I've never seen.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:00 am**

With all due respect, James, I fear you are emphasizing quantity of viewing over quality of viewing. Racing through the Criterion Collection won't gain you much beyond check marks on a list.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:06 am**

I agree with Michael. Plus, if you watch Late Spring again with commentary, you'll have all your questions answered (at least the ones you posted here). Do the same with Early Summer and Tokyo Story, and you'll have a nice little cohesive triumvirate of Ozu titles under your belt, instead of random DVD notches on your bedpost, as it were.

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:07 am**

Michael Kerpan wrote:With all due respect, James, I fear you are emphasizing quantity of viewing over quality of viewing. Racing through the Criterion Collection won't gain you much beyond check marks on a list.

You're probably right and perhaps it's daft to say I'm trying to see how much I can watch over the summer. Honestly, I'd just like to see them all, because I think it would be a cool accomplishment. I will take my time however. I'll try to rewatch Late Spring as well to write a decent review (I imagine my writing will only get better as I get older; for now I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts).

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