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I didn't mean his films are lesser just because they are shot on digital, I just meant his films started to be less interesting since he started switching formats but that wasn't the only reason.
I can like a film shot on DV, but conversely to you it completely took me out. It's not the only fault in the film, but unlike say a Greenaway film which aims to show its obvious fakeness, Mann's film are never playfully playing with their form. He has terrific visual form but he never makes it a point.
I also disagree with "repeating the same look". I do think every medium used to shoot cinema gives off a complete different feeling, and while I can live with digital if I must, the intense reality and closeness I feel when seeing something projected on 35mm is just too much to ignore. And I think something like Barry Lyndon managed to make the staid period drama, a genre I rarely have interest in, be completely ironic and mesmerizing. Every period film since immediately bring Lyndon back to my head. That's using a very rigid and old genre and making something new out of it (see also Once Upon a Time in the West, but in a genre I actually like).
But yeah Mann's recent films have had way more problems than just "digital", as I found the romance in Blackhat completely forced and the ending dissapointing among its many problems. That the constant movement makes digital looks like shit is just one small reason.

whaleallright wrote:The editing and framing has little of the authority of his best work. The narrative was banal in the extreme, adding nothing to the many films and books on similar subjects (and largely draining the charisma from the characters). Side characters are scarcely individuated before their disposal is—I think—supposed to leave some emotional residue. And on and on.

Thats what i wanted to say with "rough storytelling". Contrary to your conclusion, i think this different way of telling adds something new to all the many films and books on similar subjects that have allready been written, told etcetera.. Just being different is not a quality per se, but in my opinion, talking about big budget star system films, at least something…. (as always, this is a matter of cinematic taste).

Ali (which strikes me as some awesome set pieces in search of a movie).

I think this is spot on! And because of this, i think, the film has not much entertainment value in a classical, story telling sense, but as what you described as "a search" or artistic "attempt" - again a matter of taste, and for me much more interesting than a classical biography (whatever that may be anway).

I do think every medium used to shoot cinema gives off a complete different feeling, and while I can live with digital if I must, the intense reality and closeness I feel when seeing something projected on 35mm is just too much to ignore. And I think something like Barry Lyndon managed to make the staid period drama, a genre I rarely have interest in, be completely ironic and mesmerizing. Every period film since immediately bring Lyndon back to my head.

I am not commenting on the digital/analog theme (in artistic terms) here because this is an old hat. I agree that, and who does not?, that Barry Lyndon is an interesting film. The "ironic approach" (if i understand you correctly?) in the storytelling contrasts with the formal rigor. There is the (supposed, as always) hyper realistic form (lightning, setting etc.) versus the dialog and also the music placement. For me this culminates in the wonderfull original poster artwork that perfectly fits into the (then modern!) 70s romantic popcultural look/style.
But then, opposed to your impression, i think ironic and comical ways of telling ancient stories is nothing new to mainstream cinema so i would argue that the Kubrik way of telling this is still highly conventional and in its perfectionism (to what?) boring at times (i am on the Barry Lyndon and EWS bandwagen when it comes to Kubrik though). I talked myself in a dead end here because i do not want to compare Barry Lyndon to Public Enemies. But Manns fragmentation (or dis-interest for others) of the narrative has a different performative quality to me.

But what is not a conventional way of telling a story? Unless you watch Brakhage and other avant-garde film most films have a structure if you like it or not. There are obvious exceptions (Greenaway, Jarman) but in the end most films follow a certain convention. I don't think Mann did anything new (I haven't seen it in a few years) except the very obvious digital look. The film was still a very conventional biopic about a famous outlaw. Which is why I said that aside from looking way better, his film shot era also had a very engaging visual style but a very visceral emotional connection with his characters which sadly is missing. If there is one example of an unconventional film in Mann's oeuvre (as far as unconventional goes) is Manhunter with its beautiful focus on a cop dangerously becoming a psycho to understand his subject, while said subject vainly tries to become normal and tries to forge connections. The fact is tries (and succeeds a bit) in humanizing a serial killer is one of the reasons I adore Manhunter

DarkImbecile wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:08 am Mann secures rights to the story of the international manhunt for criminal mastermind Paul Le Roux.

Bilge Ebiri interviews Mann and author Elaine Shannon about LeRoux, the subject of the first title published by Michael Mann Books.

[Ebiri:]So are there any plans for you, as a filmmaker, to do something with this?

Mann: Yes, I have plans. Very definitely. That’s it. That’s all I can say.

Ebiri said on Twitter that work is still being done on Hue, and that Mann was in Vietnam recently.

He spoke recently about projects he has in the pipeline, including a potential follow-up to Heat, the Hue mini-series, a project on the Golden Triangle, and a historical Western he is developing with Eric Roth.

There was so much depth there -- it was always a question of 'How do you do a sequel?'

Bit of a weird question given LA Takedown was meant to be an ongoing series ala Crime Story. You’d think he’d have plenty to work with from the off.

Unless all of the key elements of the series were compressed into one long movie.

I love HEAT, but I have to confess that Mann’s description of the potential sequel doesn’t sound so interesting. By far the most interesting of the three projects discussed is the Comanche one. But it sounds like none of these projects are likely to be made so I suppose it’s all moot.

IIRC LA Takedown, completed from the failed pilot, is pretty much Heat on a lower budget and without some of the peripheral subplots. But additional work was seemingly done on it between pilot and standalone movie, similar to the development of Mulholland Drive as I understand it, so the narrative conclusion probably terminated many of the threads that would’ve been left open for development - and I’m probably overestimating how much long-term story thought is necessarily put into a series at the point a pilot is made in any case.

Brian C wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:48 pmBut it sounds like none of these projects are likely to be made so I suppose it’s all moot.

I really hope we get the Hue mini-series. Assuming FX and Michael de Luca are still behind this 100% I think we'll get it.

I am less than enthused about a Heat follow-up of any kind. The movie is just so perfect and complete a story that any attempt at continuing the narrative would be pulling at threads.

Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.

This makes a lot of sense to me on all counts and more or less is why I said earlier that none of these projects seemed likely to happen.

The thing is ... Mann is 76 years old, was never terribly prolific, has a spotty box office record, and now has made one film in the last decade. BLACKHAT was a career-threatening bomb even before taking all those other factors into account.

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:00 pm Sadly, I was told by people who have worked adjacent to Mann that a lot of it is just talk. Now that boomers are dying off, no one wants to see anything Vietnam related and that Hollywood has responded very negatively to that project. Following the failure of Blackhat, he hasn't been able to get projects off the ground due. He keeps getting close, but money falls through and the projects are quietly cancelled.

Fuck

He has enough cred to get foreign investors

FrauBlucher wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:42 pm He has enough cred to get foreign investors

If TEDF is saying he's heard this from people around Mann, I would have very little reason to doubt him, unfortunately.

He mentioned Hollywood. Didn’t say anything in regards to foreign markets. Perhaps Mann hasn’t gone that route.

I suppose my question would then be: If the money is out there to make the movie, why isn't the movie being made?

I guess I would say how much money? Is he looking for a ridiculous amount? That could scare off investors.

They may be making demands as far as casting or filming locations as well

mfunk9786 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:55 pm I suppose my question would then be: If the money is out there to make the movie, why isn't the movie being made?

Not a movie, a mini-series.

Tomato, tomato

I will admit ignorance but I've never heard of foreign investors having the same kind of sway over an American television product the way it would a movie out of Hollywood.

It seems extremely easy to believe that no one would want to give Michael Mann a bunch of money - or any money, frankly - to make a series about Vietnam. I love the guy but even I wouldn’t give him more than maybe fifty bucks to get that made.