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I understand the economic barriers that prevent you from going Blu but have you considered the 'Twilight Time model'? It seems to rile a lot of people but I think it would suit Second Run as I don't see the majority of your titles selling over 3000 copies (in an ideal world, ay?) but I could see consumers such as us paying £20-25.

You can count me in.

One problem though is that unlike Twilight Time, Second Run isn't dealing with big Hollywood studios which have kept many of their prints in good condition or have made HD masters out of them. You only have to look at the quality of many of Second Run's releases to know they rarely use HD masters. I just don't think that 90% of the stuff they put out is available to them in good enough quality for Blu.

Yeah, but it's a shame to release a title that has HD materials available on DVD in this day and age.

Peacock wrote:One problem though is that unlike Twilight Time, Second Run isn't dealing with big Hollywood studios which have kept many of their prints in good condition or have made HD masters out of them. You only have to look at the quality of many of Second Run's releases to know they rarely use HD masters. I just don't think that 90% of the stuff they put out is available to them in good enough quality for Blu.

This is absolutely the problem. I nearly thought that I'd talked them into going down the Blu route as a one-off experiment, but they decided that it would do more harm than good, by unrealistically increasing people's expectations to the point where they'd refuse to buy their stuff on DVD on the grounds that there'll probably be a BD round the corner so they might as well wait. So you have a hypothetical but nonetheless extremely plausible situation whereby the BD loses money and other releases subsequently do less well than was budgeted for, which clearly wouldn't be in anyone's interests - least of all Second Run's.

As you say, 90% (at least) of their stuff simply isn't available in HD masters, and that holds true for upcoming titles as well as their back catalogue. They can't afford to create HD masters themselves, and the titles they release are often too niche for others to pay for HD masters to be created.

Calvin wrote:Yeah, but it's a shame to release a title that has HD materials available on DVD in this day and age.

But, as I said in the Confidence thread, it currently costs six times as much to produce a BD as it does to produce a DVD. If it cost the same, or only a little bit more, or if Second Run's titles sold in far greater numbers than they typically do, this would be far less of an issue - but if you're operating in an ultra-niche market it's very very difficult to get around those numbers.

I had thought about the materials problem but I passed over it because, for example, the upcoming Polish Cinema Classics boxset is sourced from HD materials and it's a shame to see DVD-only releases like that in 2012.

I hadn't thought about the whole consumer psychology aspect of it but surely cinephiles like us (the demographic that presumably makes up a large percentage of Second Run's sales?) would realise that a DVD-only release signifies that no Blu is coming?

My suggestion was just wishful thinking but Second Run is one of my favourite distributors to get a Blu release would be a highlight of the (respective) year. Olympics? Pfft.

Peacock wrote:One problem though is that unlike Twilight Time, Second Run isn't dealing with big Hollywood studios which have kept many of their prints in good condition or have made HD masters out of them. You only have to look at the quality of many of Second Run's releases to know they rarely use HD masters. I just don't think that 90% of the stuff they put out is available to them in good enough quality for Blu.

Another problem is that titles like Pal Joey, Picnic and even The Egyptian are going to be far better known to the market that Second Run's fare. Almost all of my Second Run purchases have been blind buys based on comments here by MichaelB or reviews at Cine-Outsider. At £7.99 minus VAT I'm happy to take the risk, particularly when I can bundle them with other DVDs/BDs in one order. At around £14.99, which I'm assuming would be the price point for a BD/DF release, not so much.

Yes, as I've said time and again, this is a label that relies on people's willingness to blind-buy. So while talk of selling limited-edition BDs at £25 a go is perfectly well-meaning, it completely misunderstands Second Run's entire ethos - their business model relies on selling the discs as cheaply as they can manage without actively bankrupting themselves.

And here's another example that I've quoted before - they arranged an ultra-rare screening of The Round-Up, in 35mm, in a very accessible Central London cinema, with a Miklós Jancsó Q&A afterwards...

...and I don't think it was more than half full. Indeed, I don't think I've ever been to a notionally public screening where I turned out to know so many people in the audience personally.

And The Round-Up is one of their bigger titles in terms of advance reputation and name recognition.

That's how niche their market is.

triodelover wrote:Another problem is that titles like Pal Joey, Picnic and even The Egyptian are going to be far better known to the market that Second Run's fare. Almost all of my Second Run purchases have been blind buys based on comments here by MichaelB or reviews at Cine-Outsider. At £7.99 minus VAT I'm happy to take the risk, particularly when I can bundle them with other DVDs/BDs in one order. At around £14.99, which I'm assuming would be the price point for a BD/DF release, not so much.

The most comparable Twilight Time title would probably be Rapture which was unknown, even amongst cinephiles, until the release (it hasn't sold out yet but either has The Egyptian). It's perhaps not the best measure of awareness but if we look at the number of votes on IMDB:

The Egyptian - 1,346
Rapture - 166
Pal Joey - 1,988
Picnic - 4,004
Demetrius and the Gladiators - 1,227

Now for some Second Run titles:

Marketa Lazarova - 1,038
Valerie and Her Week of Wonders - 1,844
Daisies - 1,943
The Cremator - 2,241
The Round-Up - 725
Adelheid - 217

So, the 'nicheness' is certainly comparable if not quite as 'niche' as I presume that Twilight Time's titles will have had a chance to screen on TCM or something similar while Second Run's almost certainly won't. It's all a matter of knowing when to go the whole hog and when to hold back. Criterion probably could afford to remaster and release something like Raffaello Matarazzo's Runaway Melodramas on Blu-Ray but they took the sensible option and released it as an Eclipse (not that there haven't been some odd Eclipse decisions recently).

There may be some sort of clever business tactic that Second Run could use though. Maybe a £2 stream/download of the film will take £2 off the Blu-Ray when ordered direct? [Just thinking out loud] :-k

I really wouldn't use IMDB votes as any kind of reliable indicator of sales potential. Especially not for titles like Daisies,Valerie or The Cremator that are also available in US editions.

They're obviously not reliable but I couldn't think of another way to demonstrate awareness of a film amongst the movie-buying demographic. Perhaps we'll never see Second Run release a Blu-Ray but it would be a shame. Let's all put on a lottery...

Calvin wrote:I hadn't thought about the whole consumer psychology aspect of it but surely cinephiles like us (the demographic that presumably makes up a large percentage of Second Run's sales?) would realise that a DVD-only release signifies that no Blu is coming?

Based on the evidence of this forum alone, I would say absolutely not, no matter how many times the economic realities of the situation are politely explained by people with actual industry experience.

zedz wrote:

Calvin wrote:I hadn't thought about the whole consumer psychology aspect of it but surely cinephiles like us (the demographic that presumably makes up a large percentage of Second Run's sales?) would realise that a DVD-only release signifies that no Blu is coming?

Based on the evidence of this forum alone, I would say absolutely not, no matter how many times the economic realities of the situation are politely explained by people with actual industry experience.

And all the evidence both here and elsewhere suggests that you - and Second Run - are absolutely right.

Sadly.

This is probably just me being high off of Michael's excellent Kawakerowicz bio on the Night Train disc, but since there is at least one more of the recently restored titles coming out I'm curious if Second Run has expressed an interest in (or at least some other kind company got to the rights before them Pharaoh and Austeria. The later especially peaked my interest given how it concerns thing I'm constantly obsessing over. It certainly would fit in with the great Kawakerowicz role the company's been on.

MichaelB wrote:Yes, as I've said time and again, this is a label that relies on people's willingness to blind-buy. So while talk of selling limited-edition BDs at £25 a go is perfectly well-meaning, it completely misunderstands Second Run's entire ethos - their business model relies on selling the discs as cheaply as they can manage without actively bankrupting themselves.

I'm surprised there's no major label or wealthy cinephile out there prepared to invest in them, unless Second Run fiercely protects its independence. Anyone with even the slightest interest in World Cinema could see the label's importance.

A lovely profile of Second Run by our very own Anthony Nield, with particular focus on their non-Eastern European titles - which, after all, make up a third of the catalogue.

Excellent article antnield. Was "Mother Joan" the first release on Second Run? It's hard to tell from the discography page.

j99 wrote:Excellent article antnield. Was "Mother Joan" the first release on Second Run? It's hard to tell from the discography page.

Thanks! Here is their first press release. In the Land of the Deaf was the very first; Mother Joan and the two Nighthawks films followed a week later.

Was looking at SR's webpage today, trying to decide which titles to pick up next (and then realizing that it's still 3/5 weeks before Confidence is released... D'OH!!). The Polish Cinema Classics titles have their own spine #s, correct? The info for the individual releases isn't up on the "browse the collection" page.

(I've got the set, but I ask b/c I have a friend who's only interested in two of the titles, so I was thinking about getting them for his birthday.)

The individual releases aren't out yet. "Later this year", I understand.

EROICA (Second Run DVD 046) will be released in August; INNOCENT SORCERERS (Second Run DVD 066) will follow in Septmber.

MovieMail are doing a Second Run sale - £7.99 per title.

According to the credits at the end of Night Train's extra feature clip, My Seventeen Lives will be released by Second Run this year. Will it be released on its own, or as a supplement to another Kawalerowicz film?

From the latest newsletter...

Looking further ahead in 2013, we already gave a few hints last time of what to expect from Second Run in the coming months. In addition to our exciting series of Slovak titles including Štefan Uher's 1962 masterpiece The Sun in a Net (Slnko v sieti), and Eduard Grečner’s beautifully poetic Dragon's Return (Drak sa vracia) (which we hope will have the same impact as the discoveries you made with Second Run of films such as Marketa Lazarova and Szindbad), there will also be contemporary works from filmmakers from China, Philippines and Iran - as well as a whole host of glorious treats from The Czech Republic and a second volume of our acclaimed Polish Cinema Classics series. We hope you will continue to find much to savour and enjoy from Second Run in 2013...