criterionforum.org

Posted: **Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:29 am**

Are the films new to this boxset actually going to be BD or just the dvds?

Posted: **Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:54 pm**

Orlac wrote:Are the films new to this boxset actually going to be BD or just the dvds?

BD.

I'm looking forward to this set.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:03 am**

Kevin on Blu-ray.com wrote:Firstly we are extremely close to the end of our licence period on these with no intention to renew (they really haven't sold in huge numbers). So to carry out a normal release strategy of individuals followed by a box set is not an option as there simply isn't time.

If we were to release these as individual releases they would be priced around the £30 mark and would have truncated booklets - this was another bone of contention when we released the first sets. The box set RRP is £60, so you are essentially getting the first two sets free, leaving you to sell the duplicates (with the truncated booklet content) on Ebay or Amazon, give them to friends or family, or do what you please with. You might even want to hang onto them as the individual releases will be going out of print shortly so might even fetch you a pretty penny down the line.

We're likely to be selling the complete box set for ~£40-£45 meaning, even at the higher price, you'd be paying £5.62 per film. You'll also be getting an individually numbered boxset, and a 200 page book.

We've not ruled out a trade in, but it's unlikely. People aren't going to be happy sending their copies from outside of the UK at their cost to get a small amount off the boxset, or are they?

Lastly another member of staff and myself have campaigned for these to happen, and it's due to us that they are even happening on Blu at all, they potentially would have never seen the light of day from us without the relentless pressure from that member of staff and I.

Can people stop throwing around words like forced? If you look at the costs above you'll see that it's actually going to cost you about the same to buy them individually as it would to buy the set, plus you're getting more from the set than you would individuals. We love that you guys are so passionate about the releases, but we're really not forcing you into buying something, we're getting the remaining films out there in the only way that we can, and it's going to be a gorgeous set for about the same price as it would be to buy the individuas anyway.

I really don't want to get into a long drawn out debate over it, but hopefully this sheds some light and clears up any questions.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:52 pm**

Well let me be the first to say I totally accept this argument from Eureka and rescind my previous grumbling.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:52 pm**

Yes, that explanation sits fine with me. Could have used it at the time of announcement though! Amazon have this to pre-order at £38.92, which is only a tenner more than what a pair of individual releases would have cost. And for that we get the original DVD essays back, which were missing from the Sansho/Ugetsu upgrades, in a nice bound book. Not to mention a numbered, limited edition box set, and of course the opportunity to give away or sell our spare Sansho/Ugetsu sets.

The fact it is a limited run is unfortunate, and it'll be interesting to see if the 2,000 move quickly or not. I've pre-ordered at Amazon and will await to see what price Eureka offer.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:01 pm**

MOC adopts the Twilight Time model? Seems like a worthwhile trade-off to have these films released at all.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:09 pm**

Zot! wrote:MOC adopts the Twilight Time model?

I don't see how?

Twilight Time model: limit everything to 3000 copies and sell them at MSRP in a small unknown online retailer.
MoC model: produce discs based on demand and make them as widely available as possible.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:48 pm**

eerik wrote:
Zot! wrote:MOC adopts the Twilight Time model?
I don't see how?

I think he said this because the print run of this box is allegedly being limited to 2,000* units.

*Does anyone have a source for this?

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:56 pm**

eerik wrote:
Zot! wrote:MOC adopts the Twilight Time model?
I don't see how?

Twilight Time model: limit everything to 3000 copies and sell them at MSRP in a small unknown online retailer.
MoC model: produce discs based on demand and make them as widely available as possible.

It's a very safe bet that if all 2000 copies sell out in record time, a second print run will be ordered.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:16 pm**

MichaelB wrote:
eerik wrote:
Zot! wrote:MOC adopts the Twilight Time model?
I don't see how?

Twilight Time model: limit everything to 3000 copies and sell them at MSRP in a small unknown online retailer.
MoC model: produce discs based on demand and make them as widely available as possible.
It's a very safe bet that if all 2000 copies sell out in record time, a second print run will be ordered.

Right, I'm sort of joking, just because TT has gotten such a ribbing lately. However, yes, this is really pretty similar to that concept. They are trading on the idea that a limited release will increase interest and sell more copies before their license runs out. That said, it's a lavish package at a good price, so that's where comparisons to TT end. I'd be surpised if they're blowing through 2000 boxsets in a hurry, but here's hoping demand will be exceedingly high.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:29 pm**

The only similarity is that they are limited presses. But the Mizos will be available in all of the usual places, and is a figure specifically based it would seem on past sales records. Clearly there have been TT releases that would have sold way more than 3,000 copies. No reason to suspect, in MOC's eyes, that these will sell more than 2k.

I sincerely applaud their forthrightness with their audience and the honesty with which they've reached out. It's to be commended, and is pretty much exactly what it seems like we're looking for when we want an "explanation".

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:51 pm**

Drucker wrote:The only similarity is that they are limited presses.

And limited in timeframe. I agree that the distribution is certainly much better (also the packaging and extras and price). Again, not trying to denigrate MoC, just thought the parallel was funny.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:54 pm**

swo17 wrote:*Does anyone have a source for this?

Sorry, I thought Kevin mentioned it in the post rockysds quoted, but in fact he said it in a later post:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p ... count=9374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems like the 2000 will be it. As he says in the earlier post, the licences for all 8 films are very close to expiring. I suppose when both the box set and the individual Sansho/Ugetsu Dual Formats run dry, they'll all be fetching a pretty penny on ebay. Maybe I'll hang on to my spare Sansho/Ugetsu discs for awhile...

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:02 pm**

Presumably the rights expire some time after the release date, so if they were all to sell out in preorders, common sense would dictate that it would be worth printing another limited run. Then again, Kevin did say "when they're gone, they're gone."

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:28 pm**

It looks like exactly the same situation that the BFI was faced with when their Tati licenses expired - they quickly put out Blu-rays of Jour de Fête and Mon Oncle to catch the last possible Christmas market, knowing that the rights would expire not long afterwards. I suspect the print run for those was a fair bit bigger (Tati was always one of the BFI's perennial bestsellers), but the principle is much the same.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:59 pm**

Are there any other MOC Japanese titles that may expire rights wise alongside these.

Preordered at Amazon.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:04 pm**

Just want to remind everyone about that big yellow banner at the top of the page that say "Forum rules: Please do not clutter up the threads for MoC titles with information on pre-orders. You can announce the availability of pre-orders in the MoC: Cheapest Prices / Best Places to Buy / Pre-Orders thread. Any posts on pre-orders in any other thread will be deleted."

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:53 pm**

Eureka & MoC should have issued a statement by way of explanation on the day of announcing the boxset but however belatedly it's fine with me as well, especially if each film works out at £5-£6 plus a 200 page book.

Posted: **Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:26 pm**

Fine with me too. I can understand why people were concerned though.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:33 am**

Can't agree. The RRP for the individual releases is £22-99, not £30, at which point Kevin's argument falls apart. Even if you sell off your old discs - an investment of time many won't be able to spare - you're likely to end up at least £10 worse off than if these had just been individually released. Combining this with a threat about not renewing the license + the old "we're lucky to get the films at all" does nothing to change the fact that they're re-packaging unsold discs and then trying to make their customers buy something they already own.

Another thing, next to Metropolis, Sansho and Ugetsu are the most canonical titles in the MoC catalogue. For reasons of prestige alone, it seems unlikely that they would allow the licenses to lapse. Until Nick makes a clear statement on this, I'm not inclined to believe it.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:49 am**

bdlover wrote:Can't agree. The RRP for the individual releases is £22-99, not £30, at which point Kevin's argument falls apart. Even if you sell off your old discs - an investment of time many won't be able to spare - you're likely to end up at least £10 worse off than if these had just been individually released. Combining this with a threat about not renewing the license + the old "we're lucky to get the films at all" does nothing to change the fact that they're re-packaging unsold discs and then trying to make their customers buy something they already own.

Another thing, next to Metropolis, Sansho and Ugetsu are the most canonical titles in the MoC catalogue. For reasons of prestige alone, it seems unlikely that they would allow the licenses to lapse. Until Nick makes a clear statement on this, I'm not inclined to believe it.

Nick isn't on the MoC team anymore. Kevin speaks for the company, and he would know full well what the licensing details are. He isn't just making stuff up to try to trick you to repurchase something. And they aren't threatening you or making you do anything. They are offering a product for sale, and if you don't think the price is fair, you don't have to buy it. But then of course you don't get to have it either.

This doesn't signal a change in overall pricing strategy, but a unique price for a one-off collector's item. If you love these films and want to have them on Blu-ray, what difference does £10 really make?

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:00 am**

Moreover, I believe Kevin said that these discs, sold individually, would have an RRP of £30 each- presumably, he was referring specifically to the two not already individually for sale. It seems the point at issue was that MoC was faced with a question of selling the two remaining films at a higher price point, to make up for the lower print run, or essentially selling them at that same price and throwing in the other two for free- which is obviously preferable.

This reminds me a bit of the whinging about Criterion's move to dual-format releases, and the solution seems much the same- if you don't want the redundant discs, give them away.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:31 am**

There would be no precedent for £30 RRP on these films as separate releases and it wouldn't work commercially.

swo17 wrote:Nick isn't on the MoC team anymore.

This explains everything. I'll lower my expectations for the label in future.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:07 am**

You know what wouldn't work commercially? Trying to satisfy every unrealistic lowballer's expectations about what things ought to cost and how everything should work out to the buyers' advantage every time regardless of circumstances.

I'll lower my expectations for the label in future.

Great. Does that mean there will be less complaining about their prices and alleged devious motives?

This is the same guy who called the standard list price of £20 for the Tarnished Angels blu-ray special edition a "gouge" because supposedly the same film on DVD retails for "£1-74" (that same odd hyphen usage is the only reason I remembered this), a price derived by dividing the current price of a 6 year old cheap Universal set by the number of films in it.

Posted: **Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:34 am**

bdlover wrote:Combining this with a threat about not renewing the license + the old "we're lucky to get the films at all" does nothing to change the fact that they're re-packaging unsold discs and then trying to make their customers buy something they already own.

I'm surprised you already own them since eureka still wants £15.

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52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 1951-56

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Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

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Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

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Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

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Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195

Re: 52-59 / BD 36-37, 71-72 Late Mizoguchi: Eight Films, 195