Black Swan (Darren Aronofsky, 2010)

[mfunk9786]

lack of wide shots during the choreography, and the general over-editing of dance scenes. I think I said the same thing in my review

That may have had a bit to do with the fact that this was a pyschological thriller and not a classic-period musical or dance film.

Word, but it wouldn't have hurt to add a few more elaborate dance sequences and practices to the beginning to incite more interest into the subject matter.

That's not the movie's job. That's like saying that Boogie Nights needs more excerpts from finished porn films in it to successfully communicate to the audience.

I adore the fact that Black Swan has enough respect for the audience not to hold everyone's hand through what the finished product of a ballet production should look like. If you want to see elaborate dance sequences, go watch a movie about the art of dance, there are plenty of them.

[R0lf]

Or watch the amazing and elaborate dance sequences in Showgirls again.

[Noiretirc]

Time will tell how I really feel about this film, much like The Wrestler. The Wrestler grew exponentially on me before finally becoming one of my favorite films of the decade, and maybe the same will happen here with some research, retrospection, and repeated viewings.

My reservations about this happening stem from the fact that Black Swan tries to comment on too many subjects, each feeling too ephemeral to have the same form of profundity that The Wrestler had on me from the very first viewing.

So.....which one is it?

Enjoyable thread, this.

[tartarlamb]

I found the entire film obnoxious and unbearable. Mine was one of the many monocles you could hear popping off throughout the theater. There are so many things I will never understand about this film -- it seemed like a piece of high melodramatic camp, about ballet no less, that was marketed toward the Axe body spray crowd. Mila Kunis howling down an enormous sandwich gave me flashbacks of Carl's jr./Hardee's commercials. I'll admit that I'm way too uptight and PC for the level of misogyny and homophobia on display. I don't begrudge anyone who was able to look past that and have fun with this movie. It just wasn't for me.

However, I will say that I was really impressed with Natalie Portman's commitment to this role. I'm not a fan of hers by any measure, but she won me over. It was probably the best performance I've seen this year.

[swo17]

Saw this at a Barnes & Noble today. This seems highly inappropriate for children:

[knives]

I'll admit that I'm way too uptight and PC for the level of misogyny and homophobia on display.

?

[tartarlamb]

I don't think I'm the only one. There was just about every cliche imaginable in this one: From the desexualized death mother and her frigid ice queen daughter flirting with homosexuality, whose main issue in both development and performance is her inability to seduce her skeevy director, to the general tenor of the film, which portrays women as catty, manipulative, and batshit crazy. The less said about the glossy, girl-on-girl fantasy the better, and

Spoiler

the last scenes, with Portman penetrating herself with glass and bleeding to death, sent my psychoanalytic radar into meltdown.

I'd like to have read the entire film as putting a lens on a misogynist system, in this case the world of dance, but you know how the story goes -- in the end, you buy it or you don't. The film seemed far more complicit than critical to me.

As for the camp factor, I think Slate hit the nail on the head. I found the whole business confusing.

[Mr Sausage]

The less said about the glossy, girl-on-girl fantasy the better,

Well, assuming you include the "glossy" and "fantasy" parts among what it does wrong, I should point out that the vast majority of movie sex-scenes, heterosexual ones especially, are glossy fantasies. That's what makes them erotic, or at least attempts to be erotic. When a sex scene is played realistically it's generally so that it won't seem erotic. Domino made a good point in the Pedro Costa thread about the difference between portraying reality as maybe a third person would see it and portraying 'reality' as experienced by the people in the scene. Sex scenes, to be erotic, have to be the latter, because the eroticism really only comes out of the minds of the people engaged in the activity. They're turned on, and for you to be turned you have to experience something of what they experience.

That's the long way of saying that treating a homosexual sex scene the way you'd treat a heterosexual one in the same circumstances isn't homophobic.

[knives]

Maybe there is a little cattiness, but you're over all description of women doesn't seem to fit. The few true glances we get of Kunis' character for example betray a young and normal woman with a wicked sense of humour and an actual kindness to her fellow dancers. what you describe seems to be Nina's perception of these other characters due to her paranoia. The women only seem to be assholes in relation to Nina in no small part because Nina's going coocoo. Also before you bring it up Ryder's character seems to suffer much of the same thing as the Kunis character, but this time she's in a The Devil is a Woman situation. Much of her negative intentions are described to the audience via unreliable sources that have reasons to put a damper on her. I'm not saying she's a saint, but that Nina's perception of her and therefore our own is warped by hearsay.
As for the molestation by Cassel, as Domino said some posts back in the world of dance(or in my experience theater)there are a number of chauvinists that are just as shallow as the character in real life. There is a lot of misogyny in the arts and anyone saying otherwise is blind. As for the mother, she's an archetype. Getting upset about her would be getting upset at a whole character type that dozens of films and thousands of stories use. Actually I would applaud this film for using that archetype in a new and multifaceted manner. This isn't just an evil batshit mother like in Carrie(though I enjoy that performance), this is someone who really cares for her daughter and is trying to do the best she can. This is most notable in the way she obsess over Nina's cuts. if it weren't for her own apparent breakdown I imagine she would do the much more logical reactions to her feelings and knowledge.
As for the homophobia I still don't understand your point.
Edit:Oh, is that what he meant?

[tartarlamb]

That's the long way of saying that treating a homosexual sex scene the way you'd treat a heterosexual one in the same circumstances isn't homophobic.

That's a good point, and I agree. I suppose what bothered me about the glossiness of the scene is that it rang more as a hetero-male fantasy than a genuine female-female sex act, which is debatable of course. I read, throughout the film, a constant dread that Portman's character would reject male sexuality, and that

Spoiler

the final scene, her penetrating herself, was meant to show her fatally perverse inability to accept it properly.

It was clear to me, anyway, that Portman's frigidity and fear of male sexuality (the masturbating man in the subway, for instance) were in large part the cause of her setbacks as a dancer and of her mental instability.

[Grand Illusion]

I was really offended by the portrayal of men in this movie. All creeps or molesters, even the guys in the club taking advantage of Nina.

Also, that sex scene would've been erotic if Portman didn't begin sprouting CGI swan bumps in the middle of it. Between this and "ass-to-ass" in Requiem, Aronofsky sure knows how to ruin the male gaze.

[aox]

I have loved pretty much everything Aronofsky has done, but I thought this was awful. He overplayed his hand so many times. By the time Beth, in the hospital, stabbed herself, I gave up. People in the theater were laughing throughout the film which I thought was rude, but by the end, I agreed. What a silly and ridiculous film. The worst part is that Aronofsky gives us no reason to sympathize with Portman's character. I couldn't even get in on the ground-level here. I still felt craft-wise it was a fine film, but as a hodgepodge, a mess.

[Noiretirc]

Good God I watched this tonight and I thought it was terrible. Cliched and clumsy. A fuckin mess. Think of every slasher flick and what the music does at those special moments. Times that by 10, and voila, Black Swan. In this thread campiness has been "explained", but DA pulled a fast one on you defenders.

I need to watch The Red Fuckin Shoes right fuckin now. Or maybe Pi. Sheesh.

[James Mills]

Time will tell how I really feel about this film, much like The Wrestler. The Wrestler grew exponentially on me before finally becoming one of my favorite films of the decade, and maybe the same will happen here with some research, retrospection, and repeated viewings.

My reservations about this happening stem from the fact that Black Swan tries to comment on too many subjects, each feeling too ephemeral to have the same form of profundity that The Wrestler had on me from the very first viewing.

So.....which one is it?

Enjoyable thread, this.

I have yet to see it again, actually, but that's because frankly I don't care to. Unfortunately, none of the research I've done or support from this thread has been able to convince me that the film is more realized than I originally thought. In that sense, it stands as an exciting and entertaining exercise on suspense for me (ala Shutter Island with a tad more pretense). I like the movie and will see it again eventually, but I tend to also agree with your latest assessment in many ways.

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

Steve Erickson, "Black Swan is full of clunky dialogue, fraught melodrama, and predictable plotting...But here’s the thing: Somewhere in the last half hour of watching it, I knew I wasn’t going to be able to get this movie out of my head."

[Duncan Hopper]

Some interesting stuff about 'the Cinema of Hysteria' there. I didn't realise how many of my favorite films were so hysterical.
I did enjoy Black Swan, it's just

Spoiler

I'd have liked the film a hell of a lot more if Portman's transformation did not hinge on an Ecstasy tablet and a lesbian fling.

[mfunk9786]

It didn't...

[Duncan Hopper]

Thanks for that.

[brendanjc]

I don't see what's objectionable about saying that Lily was an impetus for the Nina's transformation, both via her carefree spirit and her open sexuality; that seems like a pretty fundamental part of the film. The things Duncan mentions are manifestations of both of those character traits. One could attempt to argue against the transformation hinging only on the effect Lily has on Nina, since the film provides plenty of other antagonisms, but I guess two-word contradictory posts are just as good as actually contributing to the discussion.

To be fair, I'm not sure I understand Duncan's objection either. For a young, sheltered person, drugs and sex seem like some of the most likely experiences to have profound impact of one's life - far more likely than seeing yourself sprouting black feathers. I'm surprised these are the things you'd object to, on what basis? Cliche?

Thoughts on the ending

I think one of the most interesting things about the film for me is that becoming the black swan seems like an insurmountable challenge since it's so incompatible with who Nina is. As Cassel points out to her in an early scene, some people have the ability to just let themselves go but Nina is too self-conscious and self-critical for that. However she is so driven that she actually succeeds by sheer force of will in changing herself - her character, her personality - in order to give the performance that's demanded of her. In my mind, the hallucinations are caused by this constant striving towards becoming a different person. When viewed in this light, it's not surprising at all that Nina goes mad and winds up destroying herself in the process; I think it's actually required since it's what she was actively working towards the entire film. I think personality is for the most part immutable, at least from conscious manipulation - how many "be a nicer person" New Years resolutions actually change the way someone thinks instead of just how they act (for awhile)? Nina has the technical proficiency, she acts correctly, but she has to affect a deeper, impossible sort of transformation to succeed.

I think this is a slightly different reading than seeing her transformation as something more positive: a self-actualization or an awakening of her sexuality to become a real woman, etc. If you take the film that way it's harder for me to see how to justify why Nina kills herself without it coming off as some negative comment on female sexuality, which I think is part of the reason some people have taken the film to be misogynistic.

One thing I only half-remember from the film - doesn't Cassel ask Portman if she's a virgin in one of the early scenes? I can't remember her response, or whether it seemed like that she was lying.

[karmajuice]

He does ask her, and I believe she denies it, but Portman gives us every clue possible (hesitant response, dropping eye contact, lack of resolution) to suggest that the opposite is true.

I rather like your take on the ending, by the way. That reading makes considerably more sense than the "personal awakening" idea -- insofar as this film is capable of making sense, anyway.

[R0lf]

I didn't have any of the same sort of glee watching this movie that I feel when I watch Piper Laurie scream - And the first sin was intercourse SAY IT SAY IT SAY IT.

[tartarlamb]

For a young, sheltered person, drugs and sex seem like some of the most likely experiences to have profound impact of one's life - far more likely than seeing yourself sprouting black feathers. I'm surprised these are the things you'd object to, on what basis? Cliche?

I think Duncan's objection, and maybe I'm wrong, is that it seems like a whole lot of sturm und drang, a lot of which hinges on an isolated evening of mild drug use and a homoerotic fantasy. Of course, there's a lot of other pressures, like an evident obsessive compulsive disorder. But it does seem to play on a single string. aox objected that there's no reason to sympathize with Portman's character, Grand Illusion objected to the portrayal of men, and myself the portrayal of women, and I think if you add it all up there's not much to grab onto in this film. It becomes an incomprehensible and increasingly ridiculous spectacle of mental derangement that takes place in a completely unpleasant sphere of humanity. I didn't know why I was watching it or why I should care.

Your point about the ending is well-taken, although it isn't how I read it. Another thing that bothered me about the film is the same ol' Apollonian/Dionysian artist yarn being carted out again. I feel like the cliché of the tempered, disciplined artist that needs to get in touch with some sort of primitive self in order to develop has been done to death. And, in this film, I felt like the trigger was Portman's development as a sexually active, and sexually normative, woman.

Spoiler

I hope I'm not the only one who saw her bleeding at the end as a pretty over-the-top metaphor for menstruation.

[matrixschmatrix]

It becomes an incomprehensible and increasingly ridiculous spectacle of mental derangement that takes place in a completely unpleasant sphere of humanity. I didn't know why I was watching it or why I should care.

I haven't seen Black Swan yet, but this was almost word for word my thought about Requiem for a Dream, and pretty close to my thought about Pi.

[James Mills]

I think Duncan's objection, and maybe I'm wrong, is that it seems like a whole lot of sturm und drang, a lot of which hinges on an isolated evening of mild drug use and a homoerotic fantasy. Of course, there's a lot of other pressures, like an evident obsessive compulsive disorder. But it does seem to play on a single string. aox objected that there's no reason to sympathize with Portman's character, Grand Illusion objected to the portrayal of men, and myself the portrayal of women, and I think if you add it all up there's not much to grab onto in this film. It becomes an incomprehensible and increasingly ridiculous spectacle of mental derangement that takes place in a completely unpleasant sphere of humanity. I didn't know why I was watching it or why I should care.

Your point about the ending is well-taken, although it isn't how I read it. Another thing that bothered me about the film is the same ol' Apollonian/Dionysian artist yarn being carted out again. I feel like the cliché of the tempered, disciplined artist that needs to get in touch with some sort of primitive self in order to develop has been done to death. And, in this film, I felt like the trigger was Portman's development as a sexually active, and sexually normative, woman.

Spoiler

I hope I'm not the only one who saw her bleeding at the end as a pretty over-the-top metaphor for menstruation.

I agree with your first paragraph, but how do you figure that specific theme to be "done to death"? I can't think of many films with the same premise. I'm not familiar with theatre, if that's what you're referring to given the art of ballet and stage performance, but I'd say there are far more recycled cliches in postmodern cinema than this (Art Cinema included). This concept isn't what hurt the film's thematics for me so much as the fact that it convolutes a whole mess of other undeveloped ideas that seem mostly irrelevant and gimmicky.

As for your spoiler, if that was the intention of the ending, why do you think it was over the top if most of us didn't get it? I certainly didn't notice it, but perhaps it was because I was already disappointed with the ending at that point and somewhat lost interest.

[mfunk9786]

There seems to be a pattern to those who have panned this film: Some people are taking it way too seriously, rather than willingly giving in to its pulpier tendencies. Dismissing it as another Showgirls and stating that it displays mental illness too absurdly or unpleasantly are two separate but equal misreadings of Aronofsky's intentions.

/or such is my opinion on the matter, which I must clarify is merely my opinion, something I never had to clarify in the past because everyone here was operating on the same wavelength