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Mondo Digital on the whole collection.

While it looks like the BFI set will be indispensable, I was wondering if there was anywhere that broke down exactly what supplemental material will be included with it, specifically details of the audio commentaries.

The Shout Factory set has dropped to $101 on Amazon which, considering the inclusion of the likes of Even Dwarves Started Small, which will likely never get an uncut release in the UK/Ireland and a few other features, makes it a tempting proposition for a double-dip, particularly if the German language audio commentaries are also exclusive.

I now have a copy of the BFI's Herzog booklet, which has some very interesting information about the restorations in general and the amount of extra work that the BFI carried out in particular:

The Werner Herzog films in this collection appear in their original aspect ratios with original mono audio (except for Cobra Verde, which is presented with original stereo audio). Alternative 5.1 surround mixes are also included. All films were scanned at 2K from original 35mm negative elements (except for The Unprecedented Defence of the Fortress Deutschkreuz, Handicapped Future, Land of Silence and Darkness, The Great Ecstasy of Woodcarver Steiner, Huie's Sermon and God's Angry Man, which were scanned in 2K from the best available 16mm negative, 16mm reversal positive and 16mm print materials) and remastered by Alpha-Omega Digital GmbH in Germany.

So all the above was carried out at the behest of Herzog's company. However...

The English and German versions of Nosferatu were scanned at 2K, using a combination of original 35mm negative and best available 35mm print materials, by Alpha-Omega Digital GmbH in Germany. Digital remastering was undertaken by the BFI, at Deluxe Soho.

And it goes on...

Scans of original assorted optical elements (opening titles, texted inserts and end credits) for Handicapped Future, Land of Silence and Darkness, The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser, The Great Ecstasy of Woodcarver Steiner, Heart of Glass, How Much Wood Would A Woodchuck Chuck, Huie's Sermon and God's Angry Man were provided to the BFI by Werner Herzog Film GmbH and have been integrated into the presentations in this collection. A textless version of the opening sequence of the opening sequence of Fitzcarraldo was provided to the BFI by Werner Herzog Film GmbH, and digitally generated text and title sections were made to accurately match the original German and English language film presentations.

In other words, it looks as though the BFI has put a lot of hands-on work into this set - they certainly haven't just taken the Herzog masters and slapped them onto BDs.

Amazon tell me I should have my set a week tomorrow. Very happy to hear about the original titling/inserts being included, and the BFI going out of there way to get them. I was a bit disheartened when watching Sorcerer last night to find all of the original subtitles were now electronic player generated ones, rather than the original filmic burnt in ones.

Not sure I understand something about Fitzcarraldo. Do they mean the master for the film provided by Werner Herzog Film GmbH was missing its titles entirely?

EddieLarkin wrote:Not sure I understand something about Fitzcarraldo. Do they mean the master for the film provided by Werner Herzog Film GmbH was missing its titles entirely?

From what I gather, they didn't like the way they looked in the master and redid them to make them resemble those on original prints more closely. But I don't have the Shout BD so I can't be more specific.

MichaelB wrote:

EddieLarkin wrote:Not sure I understand something about Fitzcarraldo. Do they mean the master for the film provided by Werner Herzog Film GmbH was missing its titles entirely?

From what I gather, they didn't like the way they looked in the master and redid them to make them resemble those on original prints more closely. But I don't have the Shout BD so I can't be more specific.

Or, quite possibly, the original image (duped to superimpose credits) looked so degraded that it was thought the presentation would be improved by using earlier generation footage with new digitally-generated text added.

MichaelB wrote:

EddieLarkin wrote:Not sure I understand something about Fitzcarraldo. Do they mean the master for the film provided by Werner Herzog Film GmbH was missing its titles entirely?

From what I gather, they didn't like the way they looked in the master and redid them to make them resemble those on original prints more closely. But I don't have the Shout BD so I can't be more specific.

This is correct.

The master provided by WHF had video generated credits superimposed. These were in a Microsoft font which was bundled with Internet Explorer 4.0 and released in 1996. During encoding/authoring I raised this with BFI (who themselves had hunted down original titles wherever possible) and they were able to supply the textless opening sequence from the negative as well a lower quality scan of a release print which had the original titles. I then used that as a guide and re-did the opening credits using the original 1980s typeface and added chromatic aberration, shake and grain to stop them looking obviously digital.

So, now we have a very close approximation of the titles as they should be without having to resort to using a beaten up print for the opening.

EddieLarkin wrote:Amazon tell me I should have my set a week tomorrow. Very happy to hear about the original titling/inserts being included, and the BFI going out of there way to get them. I was a bit disheartened when watching Sorcerer last night to find all of the original subtitles were now electronic player generated ones, rather than the original filmic burnt in ones.

Not sure I understand something about Fitzcarraldo. Do they mean the master for the film provided by Werner Herzog Film GmbH was missing its titles entirely?

With all due respect I find it disheartening that someone should let a trifling matter such as the integrity of the subtitles spoil their enjoyment of a film, even if it meant compromising the overall look of the transfer you'd have retained the original subtitles? The tiniest technical aspect of a excellent transfer for a (in my opinion) great film, so difficult to see in a decent print for so long, really isn't here nor there for me.

I realise people invariably engage on the technical merits; good or bad on blu-ray releases on here, but it's tiresome sometimes, to hear people looking for faults on some really superb presentations.

olmo wrote:With all due respect I find it disheartening that someone should let a trifling matter such as the integrity of the subtitles spoil their enjoyment of a film, even if it meant compromising the overall look of the transfer you'd have retained the original subtitles? The tiniest technical aspect of a excellent transfer for a (in my opinion) great film, so difficult to see in a decent print for so long, really isn't here nor there for me.

I think it really depends on whether the replacement subtitles are as aesthetically appealing as the original ones - because a lot of the time they're not.

This is admittedly an extreme case, but although I hugely enjoyed Day Watch (one of those rare sequels that conspicuously improved on its predecessor) I haven't bought it on video because I understand every single DVD and BD release contains bog-standard electronic subtitles - whereas the theatrical version contained extraordinarily elaborate animated subtitles (more inventive than the ones on Night Watch) that for me constituted a very significant part of the entertainment value.

But even on a far more conventional film a comparatively small amount of care and attention to detail can make a big difference. I wasn't happy with the initial subtitles on Arrow's Immoral Tales, but on a strictly technical level they were fine (no typos, in sync and generally readable), most labels would have waved them through, and virtually all customers would have assumed that they were the best that were possible under the circumstances (namely, screens full of white-on-black text and nowhere for the subtitles to go without clashing). Redoing a handful of problematic ones to make them more readable took a fair amount of effort (as we had to create unobtrusively translucent boxes behind them), but when I watched the final version last week I was delighted that we'd gone to that extra effort.

So you would rather never watch it again (outside of say a revival screening with the original subtitles) than see it with altered subs? It's your personal choice, of course, but I can't imagine wanting to deprive myself of a film I enjoyed just because of something like that

That film's really a special case--the subtitles are the only thing I even remember about it!

olmo wrote:With all due respect I find it disheartening that someone should let a trifling matter such as the integrity of the subtitles spoil their enjoyment of a film, even if it meant compromising the overall look of the transfer you'd have retained the original subtitles? The tiniest technical aspect of a excellent transfer for a (in my opinion) great film, so difficult to see in a decent print for so long, really isn't here nor there for me.

Well I never said it spoilt my enjoyment of the film, and in the grand scheme of things I would agree it is rather trifling. My issue is, that if Blu-ray is supposed to be our way of recreating a film in the home, having player generated subtitles over scenes that would have originally had burnt in subtitles, with their own unique design, is not a good way to achieve it. It's similar to what they did with The Terminator on DVD in the UK, where this opening text was removed and simply replaced with several changing lines of subtitles. You get the same information, and in fact have less of the image obscured by the text, but is it right to do it? Similarly, Bram Stoker's Dracula on DVD/Blu-ray has had all of its original subtitles (which were very unique, IIRC done to match the style of writing in the credits), replaced with player generated ones instead.

That said, I've no idea how unique looking the Sorcerer subtitles were or weren't.

MichaelB wrote:

olmo wrote:With all due respect I find it disheartening that someone should let a trifling matter such as the integrity of the subtitles spoil their enjoyment of a film, even if it meant compromising the overall look of the transfer you'd have retained the original subtitles? The tiniest technical aspect of a excellent transfer for a (in my opinion) great film, so difficult to see in a decent print for so long, really isn't here nor there for me.

I think it really depends on whether the replacement subtitles are as aesthetically appealing as the original ones - because a lot of the time they're not.

This is admittedly an extreme case, but although I hugely enjoyed Day Watch (one of those rare sequels that conspicuously improved on its predecessor) I haven't bought it on video because I understand every single DVD and BD release contains bog-standard electronic subtitles - whereas the theatrical version contained extraordinarily elaborate animated subtitles (more inventive than the ones on Night Watch) that for me constituted a very significant part of the entertainment value.

But even on a far more conventional film a comparatively small amount of care and attention to detail can make a big difference. I wasn't happy with the initial subtitles on Arrow's Immoral Tales, but on a strictly technical level they were fine (no typos, in sync and generally readable), most labels would have waved them through, and virtually all customers would have assumed that they were the best that were possible under the circumstances (namely, screens full of white-on-black text and nowhere for the subtitles to go without clashing). Redoing a handful of problematic ones to make them more readable took a fair amount of effort (as we had to create unobtrusively translucent boxes behind them), but when I watched the final version last week I was delighted that we'd gone to that extra effort.

In the context of the example you cite, of animated subtitles which obviously are integral to the film - I can see how this would be important. However, in the case of Friedkin's restoration of Sorcerer, the subtitles are perfectly serviceable and to the layman (which I very much am, admittedly) they would seem to be the best option ie. no cumbersome boxes obscuring picture detail and they are never lost in a clash of colour on screen. If memory serves, the only necessity for the subtitles is for the French section of the film's prologue which amounts to around ten minutes, so I would imagine they weren't a huge undertaking anyway? I may be wrong on that.

EddieLarkin wrote:

olmo wrote:With all due respect I find it disheartening that someone should let a trifling matter such as the integrity of the subtitles spoil their enjoyment of a film, even if it meant compromising the overall look of the transfer you'd have retained the original subtitles? The tiniest technical aspect of a excellent transfer for a (in my opinion) great film, so difficult to see in a decent print for so long, really isn't here nor there for me.

Well I never said it spoilt my enjoyment of the film, and in the grand scheme of things I would agree it is rather trifling. My issue is, that if Blu-ray is supposed to be our way of recreating a film in the home, having player generated subtitles over scenes that would have originally had burnt in subtitles, with their own unique design, is not a good way to achieve it. It's similar to what they did with The Terminator on DVD in the UK, where this opening text was removed and simply replaced with several changing lines of subtitles. You get the same information, and in fact have less of the image obscured by the text, but is it right to do it? Similarly, Bram Stoker's Dracula on DVD/Blu-ray has had all of its original subtitles (which were very unique, IIRC done to match the style of writing in the credits), replaced with player generated ones instead.

That said, I've no idea how unique looking the Sorcerer subtitles were or weren't.

Didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I understand what you're saying in regard to certain film's production design that would benefit from homogeneous subtitles, but to me the titles didn't jar in any way with the film I was watching on screen.

I would not recommend using a scissor
Honestly, can't wait anymore!

effigy105 wrote:While it looks like the BFI set will be indispensable, I was wondering if there was anywhere that broke down exactly what supplemental material will be included with it, specifically details of the audio commentaries.

There are commentaries on every fiction feature plus Fata Morgana, all in English, all moderated by Norman Hill, with Crispin Glover also participating in Fata Morgana. I suspect most or all of these were originally recorded for Anchor Bay, but I don't have any of those discs any more for comparison.

The documentary material consists of the two Les Blank films Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe and Burden of Dreams, Jack Bond's film about Herzog (made for The South Bank Show), an on-set report from Nosferatu, and a nearly 90-minute audio interview conducted by Neil Norman onstage at London's National Film Theatre in 1988. There are also trailers and stills galleries for many of the individual films - and, where available, English and German soundtracks have been included (or, in the case of Nosferatu, both versions). There's also a booklet with credits for individual films and an overview essay by Laurie Johnson.

Thanks Michael, I appreciate the response. So that means the three German-language commentaries are exclusive to Shout, from an English-friendly perspective (one of which is on Where the Green Ants Dream, which isn't in the BFI set anyway). I have all the Anchor Bay discs already so that means it's all repetition but I'm not at all bothered by that. The Shout Factory's supplements have less overlap with what I already own but since the price has leapt back up again and I can safely assume that the BFI encodes will be superior, which is the main thing, I'll gladly 'settle' for just owning the UK set.

In the meantime here's hoping Even Dwarves Started Small gets a separate, uncut release HD release somewhere else.

Yep, just dug out my old Anchor Bay box sets; 'Audio Commentary with Director Werner Herzog, Norman Hill and Crispin Glover on the Fata Morgana & Even Dwarves Started Small discs. Herzog & Hill on the remaining films (The Enigma of Kaspar Hauser, Heart of Glass & Stroszek.

The Anchor Bay Herzog/Kinski set is pretty much the same, although there isn't a commentary provided for Woyzeck. There is additional commentary from Lucki Stipetic on the Fitzcarraldo disc, a name I'm not familiar with.

Delving into these sets for the first time in quite a while, I noticed something which had never struck me previously; I may be wrong here but Anchor Bay seemed to be the vanguard for the reversible sleeve art. The original promo posters form the artwork inside and are far more desirable/presentable than the commissioned artwork, which is frankly, pretty naff.

olmo wrote:There is additional commentary from Lucki Stipetic on the Fitzcarraldo disc, a name I'm not familiar with.

He's Herzog's stepbrother (Herzog's birth name is Werner Stipetić), the head of Werner Herzog Filmproduktion, and the producer of many of Herzog's films, including Fitzcarraldo.

MichaelB wrote:

olmo wrote:There is additional commentary from Lucki Stipetic on the Fitzcarraldo disc, a name I'm not familiar with.

He's Herzog's stepbrother (Herzog's birth name is Werner Stipetić), the head of Werner Herzog Filmproduktion, and the producer of many of Herzog's films, including Fitzcarraldo.

Ah right, cheers. No wonder he has something to chip in with on Fitzcarraldo.

Just got shipping confirmation from Amazon, and it's supposed to arrive on Thursday. \:D/

swo17 wrote:Just got shipping confirmation from Amazon, and it's supposed to arrive on Thursday. \:D/

I know this is the BFI forum, but the discussion has also included Shout!'s collection. Is yours the BFI or Shout!'s that shipped? I'm curious because the Shout one has been under review by Amazon for about a week or so.

My Shout Herzog set arrived a few weeks back, and I got notice that my BFI set shipped last Saturday.

AMalickLensFlare wrote:

swo17 wrote:Just got shipping confirmation from Amazon, and it's supposed to arrive on Thursday. \:D/

I know this is the BFI forum, but the discussion has also included Shout!'s collection. Is yours the BFI or Shout!'s that shipped?

BFI