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The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:I don't see how "the film was scanned at 24 frames per second and therefore is four percent longer than the original broadcast" can mean anything other than Criterion -- or someone -- did the telecine at 24fps (or 23.976fps) and thus made the film slower than what Fassbinder actually shot and what German television viewers actually saw. Presumably Criterion considers this a lesser evil than doing a 25fps transfer and converting it to NTSC, and while I can't imagine they wouldn't apply pitch correction, it's certainly a valid concern.

I can only imagine my chagrin at having to hear Richard Tauber's opening Lehar aria down a half-step....a nitpick, to be sure, but so be it. It IS often a mess when European 25fps video material is converted to NTSC. EMI's Classic Archive series of DVDs has many examples of this where a performer's motion leaves a trail...it's very hard to tolerate. Strangely, I recently compensated for one such example by telling my Oppo player to output PAL to my LCD........the original was PAL VIDEO, but the disc was NTSC all the way.....maybe it's not perfect, but the motion trails were gone.

Do European TV productions actually shoot at 25fps or is it just converted up during the telecine? Surely this would apply to, say, Scenes From A Marriage as well?

I have to admit that I'm more than just a little in awe of this release. The inclusion of the earlier film, the original making-of, the contemporary docs and interviews AND an analysis of the novel make this one of the most scholarly releases in the collection. It will certainly have to be approached as if it were a project. The last time I had this much anticipation for a DVD release was Mr. Arkadin, and even that seems light on context by comparison.

I hope the extra 2.5 seconds per minute doesn't turn out to be an issue, or is at most as forgivable of the PAL speedup we're all already familiar with. This has the potential to not just be release of the year, but the pinnacle of the format.

4% is absolutely not noticeable, and in fact I guarantee you've all seen PAL sped-up films and not even realized it.

domino harvey wrote:4% is absolutely not noticeable, and in fact I guarantee you've all seen PAL sped-up films and not even realized it.

It is noticeable if you have perfect pitch or are already extremely familiar with a film soundtrack before it was sped-up. For instance, I do notice the PAL speed-up when it comes to Morricone's music for the Leone films and John Barry's music for Zulu, to name two examples that come immediately to mind.

For films that I've never seen or haven't seen in a long time, you're right, though. I know some people who claim to be able to tell a difference just by the higher pitch of certain actors' voices, but that's beyond my ear.

If they shot on 16mm at 24 fps, it probably was then speeded up the 4% for a 25 fps PAL telecine transfer to tape for transmission and distribution, so it's now probably being slowed back to the actual shooting speed, although not the original transmission speed and duration.... No problem, either way...

ellipsis7 wrote:If they shot on 16mm at 24 fps, it probably was then speeded up the 4% for a 25 fps PAL telecine transfer to tape for transmission and distribution, so it's now probably being slowed back to the actual shooting speed, although not the original transmission speed and duration.... No problem, either way...

They didn't film at 24 fps. They shot at 25 fps

tryavna wrote:

domino harvey wrote:4% is absolutely not noticeable

It is noticeable if you have perfect pitch or are already extremely familiar with a film soundtrack before it was sped-up. For instance, I do notice the PAL speed-up when it comes to Morricone's music for the Leone films

Yes, it's only noticeable if you have perfect pitch (I do), and know the music well. Could not stand "La Dolce Vita" on the Italian R2 DVD, and I don't want to hear Tauber's Lehar in Ab instead of A major. But, I'm sure it's not going to be a problem with most folks.

unclehulot wrote:Yes, it's only noticeable if you have perfect pitch (I do), and know the music well.

Well I don't have perfect pitch and I've definitely noticed it and been deeply disturbed by it from actor's voices, though it is usually more noticeable with music. I think it's particularly apparent in tonal languages, such as Cantonese. If you know the actors at all or have any kind of ear for the sound of language it's painful to listen to.

Most modern home video releases pitch correct for PAL transfer (or NTSC transfer of 25fps material). Thus, all you may notice is a very slight increase (or decrease) in the speed.

Anyway, this set is too expensive. Here in Asia I can pick-up most DVDs for $2 a pop and, as a result, have gone down to maybe three Criterions in the past year where, previously, I might have bought 3+ in one month. $125 for one film in Standard Definition is simply too much.

tryavna wrote:It is noticeable if you have perfect pitch or are already extremely familiar with a film soundtrack before it was sped-up. For instance, I do notice the PAL speed-up when it comes to Morricone's music for the Leone films and John Barry's music for Zulu, to name two examples that come immediately to mind.

I remember a negative review of the British VHS release of Joseph Losey's Don Giovanni by a professional music critic.

He immediately spotted that the opera was playing a semitone high, but blamed the orchestra and conductor - almost certainly because he didn't know about PAL speedup issues. (And why would he have needed to?)

Nothing wrote:Anyway, this set is too expensive. Here in Asia I can pick-up most DVDs for $2 a pop and, as a result, have gone down to maybe three Criterions in the past year where, previously, I might have bought 3+ in one month. $125 for one film in Standard Definition is simply too much.

Well, hopefully the CC will keep that in mind the next time they go through the time and expense of delivering another package. Anything you can post to discourage further releases is greatly appreciated.

Nothing wrote:$125 for one film in Standard Definition is simply too much.

It might not serve the purposes of your rhetorical flourish, but maybe the fact that the film in question is fifteen hours long has some bearing on the price point? Tell you what, try thinking about this set as fifteen films (13 parts + epilogue + Jutzi original) and recalculate. You can have the extras for free.

I agree it's a bit too pricey, though I'm not sure what the price of DVDs in Asia have to do with anything. It certainly can't compare to the Cassavetes set, the only other release in the $125 club, which had an extra disc than BA, five films and an exhausting documentary. $100 might be a more fair and consistent price point.

souvenir wrote:It certainly can't compare to the Cassavetes set, the only other release in the $125 club

Total time of all the Cassavetes set (including A Constant Forge, but not including extras) is roughly 15.75 hours.

Total time of all of Berlin Alexanderplatz (not including the extras, but including the original film) is roughly 17.18 hours.

List price: $124.95
From DVD Planet: $81.22
DVD Planet's 20% off sale: $64.98
Per disc (on sale) $9.28
Per film (on sale): $4.33

Look at that. Still twice as expensive as a bootlegged Spiderman 3 from China. What the hell is Criterion thinking?

kaujot wrote:Total time of all the Cassavetes set (including A Constant Forge, but not including extras) is roughly 15.75 hours.

Total time of all of Berlin Alexanderplatz (not including the extras, but including the original film) is roughly 17.18 hours.

I thought the Monsters and Madmen set taught us all not to quibble over running time versus price.

Monsters and Madmen set (not including extras) - 315 minutes

Scenes from a Marriage (not including extras) - 299 minutes (TV version) plus 169 minutes (theatrical version)

I'm pretty sure that the quality of the films in the Monsters & Madmen set don't compare with Berlin Alexanderplatz (nor Scenes from a Marriage), but since I've never seen them, and have no desire to, I couldn't really say. But Cassavetes and Fassbinder, I think, do compare quite nicely.

I'm not up for a discussion of pricing in relation to quality any more than one of pricing against runtime. It's not an issue of quality. I think Berlin Alexanderplatz is priced a little too high within the field of Criterion's other releases since it's ultimately one title.

Other DVD companies, besides HBO, do not price television shows over three times as much as their feature films. Even Criterion hasn't done this in the past. Tanner '88 is 353 minutes and retails for under $30.

souvenir wrote:Other DVD companies, besides HBO, do not price television shows over three times as much as their feature films. Even Criterion hasn't done this in the past. Tanner '88 is 353 minutes and retails for under $30.

The restoration costs of Tanner '88 are fairly minimal, I would imagine, whereas Berlin Alexanderplatz is a difficult restoration project spanning a number of years...I would imagine that factors into the asking price at some point.

souvenir wrote:Other DVD companies, besides HBO, do not price television shows over three times as much as their feature films. Even Criterion hasn't done this in the past. Tanner '88 is 353 minutes and retails for under $30.

Well...Berlin Alexanderplatz is nearly three times as long as Tanner '88, requires what seems to be a difficult (or atleast unusual) transfer, and contains over three hours of extras, plus an additional feature film (making it, at least, two titles) and a large booklet.

Tanner '88 was transferred from tape and was a relatively barebones disc.

posters on this site will really complain about anything given the opportunity

The German set sells for about 40 euros.

Barmy wrote:The German set sells for about 40 euros.

The price on Amazon.de translates to about $58 for an edition with fewer features and one less disc. Shortly after the Criterion edition comes out, I'll order it during DVD Planet's semi-annual sale, and with free shipping pay about $65.

Why are we still discussing the price?

Maybe if the boxset only came with the film itself, I'd balk a little too. But even then, you have to account for the fact that its a 16 hour movie that just went through an intensive restoration. If the price really is a problem and you don't care about the unbelievably extensive special features, it'll probably only take up a few weeks of Netflix rentals, which will cost you all of $8. If you (like me) want to own this thing, $65 seems perfectly reasonable.

skuhn8 wrote: Well, hopefully the CC will keep that in mind the next time they go through the time and expense of delivering another package. Anything you can post to discourage further releases is greatly appreciated.

As Barmy points out, the Germans who actually led the restoration are selling their version for €40. And I have little to no interest in the "additional feature". Given the 25fps issues, it seems that the Europeans editions shall be the way to go on this.

Hopefully fewer people falling for this extortion will actually encourage Criterion to get off their arses and start releasing HD discs - then they can happily charge whatever they like. Even the $39-99 for standard Criterion titles is looking flatly ridiculous in the current climate.