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King of Kong wrote:So is Heaven's Gate worth a blind buy or no?

I stand by what I wrote earlier: even if you think it blows, you should see, and probably own, it simply for it's extraordinary VZ cinematography.

I was at a used bookstore today and came across the first edition of the book "Final Cut," an account of the making of "Heaven's Gate." I've stayed away from this book because I read that is resented by Cimino, Huppert, and others who worked on it. So as a massive admirer of "Deer Hunter" and "Heaven's Gate," and someone who respects Cimino greatly, I took his word in an interview that it was rubbish. However, I've never seen this book before, and I just had to see what it was.

I spent about fifteen minutes looking through it, and to my astonishment, I couldn't put it down. It seems like an incredibly exhaustive and well-written account of "Heaven's Gate's" making, with more fascinating information than I ever thought I'd ever read about it, and I've been dying to get my hands on stories about its production, as this film is almost never discussed). Bach also details generally what was going on in the film industry during that time (with a particularly generous amount on Woody Allen and the making of "Manhattan," which is also fascinating as that's also one of my favorite films). Maybe it's because it's a nearly 500 page book and I only skimmed through it for fifteen minutes, but Bach didn't seem that hostile toward Cimino, even citing him as a genius a few times (and Bach apparently loved "The Deer Hunter"). But Huppert and others have said that the book has mercenary intentions and was written to attack Cimino, and Cimino himself dismisses it as 'pure fiction.' So, does anybody know what is 'fiction' about Bach's book, or is Michael Cimino simply angry that his entire egotistical personality fleshed out by Bach (and the fact that Cimino, despite making a masterpiece, greatly sunk the studio, making his directorial ways notorious rather than admirably risky {which is what they would've been considered had the film been a success}) But then again, why would members of the cast also dismiss it?

Any comments from those who have read it are intensely welcome. I'd also like to know Bach treats this production in his book (or even better, how one sees Bach treating it from a Cimino fan's point of view). I think that "Heaven's Gate" is a masterpiece and that Cimino was truly a great artist, and while I will certainly read Bach's account soon, I want to hear from others first.

I didn't pick up the first edition at my used bookstore because I knew it had been revised and reprinted, with a new introduction. Does this newer edition further stab Cimino for his failed career (it has been 20 years since the first edition, and since Cimino never again made a splash, does Bach emphasize on that in his introduction)? And finally, does this book stab Cimino at all, or is it more the point of view that he hated?

And also, where can I find a copy of the documentary "Final Cut?"

Dylan wrote:And also, where can I find a copy of the documentary "Final Cut?"

After an initial flurry of showings, I understand that it has been rather effectively suppressed, but I'd love to hear different.

I hope that's not the case, because it's a terrific film. Cimino doesn't come across as infallible, but he's given a rather sympathetic treatment. As is his film, which is maybe even more important.

If I had to guess, I'd say that his legendary unwillingness to compromise in any way may color his view of the book. And that's just what that is...a guess.

I remember a line in Final Cut going something like "Maybe the time has come for Heaven's Gate to find a new audience. . ." I always liked that, and I think if it got the multi disc directors cut dvd it deserves it would be well received today. At least by myself and others at this forum.

There is also some intriguing commentary about Heaven's Gate.

Late last year, I heard from a reliable source that MGM were planning a SE of Heaven's Gate, but that it was cancelled, along with many other 'deluxe packages' when they were in negotiation to sell, eventually to Sony. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Sony releasing a SE, after the partially restored Major Dundee was such a success, it proves that Sony has the guts to ressurect maligned films theatrically and on DVD.

One of the other major SE remasters was to be Midnight Cowboy and that is surely still on the cards for a 2006 release.

For those of us in LA, the Aero Theatre in Santa Monica is screening a 'Restored and Uncut' print of "Heaven's Gate" running at 219 mins. The film will be introduced by LA Times film critic Kevin Thomas.

See you there!

a.khan wrote:For those of us in LA, the Aero Theatre in Santa Monica is screening a 'Restored and Uncut' print of "Heaven's Gate" running at 219 mins. The film will be introduced by LA Times film critic Kevin Thomas.

Wow. Anyone in the area should really check this out. I love this film. I hope this means there's an SE DVD on the way (as well as a screening in New York.)

chaddoli wrote:Wow. Anyone in the area should really check this out. I love this film.

Yeah, me too. Anybody who fancies losing a few brain cells should read this staggeringly misguided recent piece from The Guardian, which probably belongs in the 'rediculous...' thread.

All that said, none of these very, very, very bad movies automatically qualify as the worst film ever made. While it may disappoint those who welcome my occasionally unconventional opinions, I am firmly in the camp that believes that Heaven's Gate is the worst movie ever made. For my money, none of these other films can hold a candle to Michael Cimino's 1980 apocalyptic disaster. This is a movie that destroyed the director's career. This is a movie that lost so much money it literally drove a major American studio out of business. This is a movie about Harvard-educated gunslingers who face off against eastern European sodbusters in an epic struggle for the soul of America. This is a movie that stars Isabelle Huppert as a shotgun-toting cowgirl. This is a movie in which Jeff Bridges pukes while mounted on roller skates. This is a movie that has five minutes of uninterrupted fiddle-playing by a fiddler who is also mounted on roller skates. This is a movie that defies belief.

A friend of mine, now deceased, was working for the public relations company handling Heaven's Gate when it was released. He told me that when the 220-minute extravaganza debuted at the Toronto film festival, the reaction was so thermonuclear that the stars and the film-maker had to immediately be flown back to Hollywood, perhaps out of fear for their lives. No one at the studio wanted to go out and greet them upon their return; no one wanted to be seen in that particular hearse. My friend eventually agreed to man the limo that would meet the children of the damned on the airport tarmac and whisk them to safety, but only provided he was given free use of the vehicle for the next three days. After he dropped off the halt and the lame at suitable safe houses and hiding places, he went to Mexico for the weekend. Nothing like this ever happened when Showgirls or Gigli or Ishtar or Xanadu or Glitter or Cleopatra were released. Nothing like this happened when The Hottie and the Nottie dropped dead the day it was released. Heaven's Gate was so bad that people literally had to be bribed to go meet the survivors. Proving that, in living memory, giants of bad taste once ruled the earth. Giants. By comparison with the titans who brought you Heaven's Gate, Paris Hilton is a rank amateur.

Who says that print film criticism is going to hell?

No surprise there. Queenan is a smug, trite dildo. He's never been, and never will be, anything else. He's like Bill Maher's stupider brother.

Polybius wrote: a smug, trite dildo. .

Polybius wrote: a smug, trite dildo. .

Polybius wrote: a smug, trite dildo. .

Polybius wrote: a smug, trite dildo. .

Endlessly repeatable inna fascinating sorta way. Cartoons seem to bloom in your minds eye after the second or third rep.

Seriously, I've been wanting to see this film for a good many years. The stories surrounding its release are legion, and I remember them back inna day. After the Deer Hunter you can't overstate the control this guy was granted over the pic.

HerrSchreck wrote:Endlessly repeatable inna fascinating sorta way. Cartoons seem to bloom in your minds eye after the second or third rep.

I think Daffy would do it proper justice.

Or Droopy, if MGM is more your thing.

Groovy avatar incidentally.

(Nothing like watching Tex Avery toons on my interocitor. Or The Deer Hunter.)

Well, I missed out on seeing Heaven's Gate in time for the 80s List Project, but I did finally get a chance to watch it and predictably, it was no disaster. I know, that's what we all say, but still. I think the film certainly had its share of problems, particularly with its dialog (the third of it that was audible of course), but most of the picture works-- and yes, let me add to the chorus of the running time flies by.

What I was most taken with was how Cimino wrestles together crowds on screen in a way that accurately captures the frustrations of mobs. Interruptions, claustrophobia, and the general confused rush of the masses are put forth in a way that replicates the experience. It isn't pleasurable, it's a little grating and unnerving-- as it should be! I particularly liked the extended opening (I can't remember the last movie I saw that presented an audience that laughed like an actual group of people would laugh) and the dusty befuddlement of the scene where Kristopherson navigates the immigrants and assholes to buy Jeff Bridges' gun-- Cimino manages to kill every romantic and peaceful notion of the Old West born from countless Hollywood films in about five minutes. It's not that it's a surprise that people were jerks then and now, and many revisionist westerns before this and since have done an ample job destroying myths, but this film is the first I've seen that sells the point that above all, living in a western would be annoying.

Heaven's Gate is a film I haven't seen yet, and I've been meaning to buy it. I've heard terrible things about the DVD transfer though. Is it that bad, or should I pick up a copy?

RobertAltman wrote:Heaven's Gate is a film I haven't seen yet, and I've been meaning to buy it. I've heard terrible things about the DVD transfer though. Is it that bad, or should I pick up a copy?

The film could certainly look better, but for my money the DVD transfer currently available is a perfectly good representation of Cimino and Zsigmond's breathtaking visuals. What this movie really needs, and I agree with those on here who concur that this is a reasonably profound film, is an SE DVD comparable to Universal's recent Touch of Evil set - full of documentaries, materials, running commentaries (including Cimino), deleted scenes (if any exist), a book, and two (or more) cuts of this film (including the theatrical 1981 and Zsigmond's recent restoration of the director's cut that's currently available).

Does anyone know which version of Heaven's Gate has been broadcast on ITV 1 in the UK in the last couple of years? It is not the 220 minute version. I suspect there are different versions out there, but was there an edited version made specifically for television?

Heads-up: MGM-HD (a U.S. high-def channel with limited US penetration) will be showing "Heaven's Gate" this upcoming Thursday (April 29th) from 10PM to 2AM. MGM only shows movies in their original aspect ratio and in 1080i so this will have a leg-up resolution-wise over most recent airings (on TCM).

The prologue and epilogue are critical to this film. The woman in the picture who first appears in the the prologue represents the guardian of true American Ideals. Does she vaguely appear like the Statue of Liberty? (Dedicated in 1886, the film begins in 1870) Is she an angel? She is always seen from above in the prologue.
Of course the debate in the prologue deals with the responsibility of the culturally literate to share with others, though John Hurt's character suggests, the makeup of the world is just fine as it stands: "The law has been ratified, and the common result can be counted on still. All rivers as usual running downhill, the seasons in turn will continue to roam, we shall ask for no change in the North or South Pole. The sun will continue to set in the west, the majority of us consider it best. We disclaim all intention of making a change, in what we esteem on the whole to be well arranged."

The epilogue of the film represents to me that the failure of the dream of American Liberty. Instead, Jim and those he represents remain isolated to the world, reveling in their wealth, but unhappy and unsatisfied. The Wyoming section of the film, the main section, is the dream of liberty and tolerance, but it is only a dream. The woman wakes up to the ticking of the clock which is heard prominently through out the film. And the tragedy of the film is not the sudden deaths at the end, but the very real possibility that liberty and tolerance have not come into fruition.

The parallels to today are painfully obvious.

There's no doubt "Heaven's Gate" is flawed, but hardly worth destroying a guy's career over... especially when, say, the Wayans brothers are still allowed to make the kind of movies they want [shudder].

That's what I though the first time I saw it. Every subsequent time I've seen it has only increased it in my eyes. The thing I thought of as flawed reveled themselves to be entirely logical, and in fact strengths of the film. I think it's about as perfect as a film can get at this point, and I do think it will be rediscovered by coming generations (although it'll probably be too late for Cimino to get his long-deserved comeback).

Criterion release announced for November 2012.

Oddly, for a two-disc release, the extras seem a little light here (or is it just me?). There's no Final Cut: The Making and Unmaking of Heaven's Gate, which I thought was a given.