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I'd hate to see them package them together for that very reason. Jubal is no extra.

So you'd rather pay a lot more just to have a precious spine number?

Maybe I'm just rich, but I've never lost any sleep over how Criterion prices anything.

I'm with you. I remember the prices I had to pay CC for CAV laserdiscs.

I never understood the issue about prices with Criterions. First of all they are way way cheaper than their old Laserdisc releases and secondly you can get them at 50% off twice a year at B&N and usually at least once in a Criterion direct sale - I wish I could say that for all the labels.

Still, just to play devil's advocate, they set a precedent with a release like The Killing, where they could have easily soaked buyers with another $30 release to get Killer's Kiss because of Kubrick's name recognition, but included it as a bonus feature to add value to the overall release. In fact, there were even a couple of bonus features specific to Killer's Kiss on the disc. I realize it's a hair short of usual feature film length, but it's still a precedent that I think most people expect to see repeated and are surprised when it isn't. Lonesome is another case where other films by the director were thrown onto a feature-packed Blu-ray... even if one can afford to buy both 3:10 to Yuma and Jubal if they really want both, it's just disappointing to see Criterion diverge from that sort of recent history of feature-rich, value-rich releases.

mfunk9786 wrote:Still, just to play devil's advocate, they set a precedent with a release like The Killing, where they could have easily soaked buyers with another $30 release to get Killer's Kiss because of Kubrick's name recognition, but included it as a bonus feature to add value to the overall release. In fact, there were even a couple of bonus features specific to Killer's Kiss on the disc. I realize it's a hair short of usual feature film length, but it's still a precedent that I think most people expect to see repeated and are surprised when it isn't. Lonesome is another case where other films by the director were thrown onto a feature-packed Blu-ray... even if one can afford to buy both 3:10 to Yuma and Jubal if they really want both, it's just disappointing to see Criterion diverge from that sort of recent history of feature-rich, value-rich releases.

Fair enough, but the assumption people are making here is that Jubal was released standalone for monetary reasons, while some would argue that as a film it deserves its own place/spine (which if I recall debates about the Kubricks correctly wasn't necessarily the case with Killer's Kiss).

vsski wrote:Fair enough, but the assumption people are making here is that Jubal was released standalone for monetary reasons, while some would argue that as a film it deserves its own place/spine (which if I recall debates about the Kubricks correctly wasn't necessarily the case with Killer's Kiss).

Which is possibly the most stupid argument you could make. Like a Criterion spine number means absolutely anything.

Well, it doesn't mean absolutely nothing.

mfunk9786 wrote:Still, just to play devil's advocate, they set a precedent with a release like The Killing, where they could have easily soaked buyers with another $30 release to get Killer's Kiss because of Kubrick's name recognition, but included it as a bonus feature to add value to the overall release. In fact, there were even a couple of bonus features specific to Killer's Kiss on the disc. I realize it's a hair short of usual feature film length, but it's still a precedent that I think most people expect to see repeated and are surprised when it isn't. Lonesome is another case where other films by the director were thrown onto a feature-packed Blu-ray... even if one can afford to buy both 3:10 to Yuma and Jubal if they really want both, it's just disappointing to see Criterion diverge from that sort of recent history of feature-rich, value-rich releases.

This is me being really childish in regards to your excellent points, but even in terms of a director's career Jubal is not a footnote like Killer's Kiss is. I suppose a more accurate point of comparison would be the Kiarostami films where major works were listed as extras with no additional supplements. Though even then it strikes me as a case where there was some technical or critical flaw with those films which lead them to being extras where that is not the case with Daves. In this case I feel it is closest to what happened with the Mishima releases.

TMDaines wrote:

vsski wrote:Fair enough, but the assumption people are making here is that Jubal was released standalone for monetary reasons, while some would argue that as a film it deserves its own place/spine (which if I recall debates about the Kubricks correctly wasn't necessarily the case with Killer's Kiss).

Which is possibly the most stupid argument you could make. Like a Criterion spine number means absolutely anything.

It's abundantly clear from your many postings here regarding prices that all you care about is to get the most movies and supplements for the cheapest prices - and if that's all you care about good for you.
However, there are many people who also buy their movie for collection purposes and proudly display them in their living rooms and many like to have them in nice standalone editions. Criterion has always catered to a niche market and especially a collector's market (hence the whole spine thingy) and having a movie in a standalone edition with the Criterion seal of approval does mean something to some people (obviously not to you) and even some of the directors are proud to have their movie come out as a Criterion release.

vsski wrote:

TMDaines wrote:

vsski wrote:Fair enough, but the assumption people are making here is that Jubal was released standalone for monetary reasons, while some would argue that as a film it deserves its own place/spine (which if I recall debates about the Kubricks correctly wasn't necessarily the case with Killer's Kiss).

Which is possibly the most stupid argument you could make. Like a Criterion spine number means absolutely anything.

It's abundantly clear from your many postings here regarding prices that all you care about is to get the most movies and supplements for the cheapest prices - and if that's all you care about good for you.

Mate, you know nothing about me. Stop pretending you do. Considering I volunteer in my free time at two different cinemas to keep them open, I'm more than happy to spend time and money on the things I love. I happily pay for Edition Filmmuseum's releases, even though they're rather pricey compared to the competition as they consistently pack them full of curiosities. I'd just prefer to spend my time and money wisely, and hold people to higher standards.

I've no interest in this release, but it's pretty clear it isn't one of Criterion's best. If it was TT, I'm sure we'd see it as an absolute miracle but Criterion have held themselves to higher standards over the years - which is probably the reason why you are proud to own them and like collecting them, no?

It'd be nice if Criterion would go back to releasing double packages on occasion, with two separate spine numbers- this seems like it would be a good situation for something like There Was a Father/The Only Son, where it's essentially two different releases but we get a break on the price.

TMDaines wrote:Mate, you know nothing about me. Stop pretending you do. Considering I volunteer in my free time at two different cinemas to keep them open, I'm more than happy to spend time and money on the things I love. I happily pay for Edition Filmmuseum's releases, even though they're rather pricey compared to the competition as they consistently pack them full of curiosities. I'd just prefer to spend my time and money wisely, and hold people to higher standards.

I've no interest in this release, but it's pretty clear it isn't one of Criterion's best. If it was TT, I'm sure we'd see it as an absolute miracle but Criterion have held themselves to higher standards over the years - which is probably the reason why you are proud to own them and like collecting them, no?

I never pretended to know anything about you personally, that's your interpretation. I do know, however, that you have voiced on this board on numerous occasions your displeasure about especially the pricing of a given release, and imo opinion in a very accusatory tone, without knowing the specific economics of a given label or release simply based on what you believe the standard should be. And in several instances I recall it was about a release you seemingly didn't care about in the first place.
Every label has different economics that unless you know the specific contracts / structure are not clear to the outside world. Every label also sets its prices based on their own assumptions of what the market will bear for a given release. If you don't like the price or the release, don't buy it. And yes, it is ok to voice your displeasure and hopefully some of the labels will listen if enough people complain, but don't do it in a way where it comes across that it's because you know what the standard should be or by comparing it with some other label, whose economics may well be quite different.

At the same time, I also know that you have a vast knowledge of cinema and directors from all corners of the world, and believe it or not, I do enjoy you pointing to lesser known labels or releases from Eastern Europe for example.

As to Jubal, I do like the movie, I believe its not a minor Daves' effort (purely based on my personal opinion and taste) and I'm glad that Criterion is releasing it as a BD, which I'm sure will the best version PQ-wise we have so far seen. I believe it warrants a standalone release and I'm happy to pay $15 for it during the next B&N sales. Would I have liked more supplements on it? Sure, but I'm just happy to get the movie on BD. As has become clear in the past years, Criterion is no longer releasing as many packed with supplement releases as they used to, but I believe the marketplace and economics have more to do with that than CC not wanting to or having become lazy.

Edit: Corrected the price - thank you!

vsski wrote: and I'm happy to pay $20 for it during the next B&N sales.

Correction: $15! What a bargain!

vsski wrote:I never pretended to know anything about you personally, that's your interpretation. I do know, however, that you have voiced on this board on numerous occasions your displeasure about especially the pricing of a given release, and imo opinion in a very accusatory tone, without knowing the specific economics of a given label or release simply based on what you believe the standard should be...

You make it seem like I don't take all take into account before commenting - I do. Here I was just suggesting that it would be silly not to release a pair of films together because of something not getting a spine number. I would hate to think that Criterion have not given us a bonus film from time to time because someone might have got upset that a personal favourite of theirs was merely acting as a B-side. The examples mfunk gives of why these releases fall short in comparison are sound.

TMDaines wrote:You make it seem like I don't take all take into account before commenting - I do.

You have a strange way of showing this given the tone and style of your remarks. But let's stop the infighting on this thread - feel free to continue this on another more appropriate thread or PM me if you like.

I already mentioned that I think mfunk has a very valid argument and in the end if they had put Jubal as an extra to 3:10 to Yuma I would have gladly bought it as well. My argument is that both 3:10 and Jubal are major entries into Delmer Daves' career while Killer's Kiss doesn't hold the same position in Kubrick's.

But the pricing of Jubal is very much in line with CC's other bare bones BDs that are released as standalone discs, so the real argument that people have made here is whether 3:10 deserves the higher price point given the scarcity of the extras on that disc - and that I think is an extremely valid point that I can't disagree with.

DVDBeaver comparisons of the Criterion and Sony releases:

Jubal
3:10 to Yuma

vsski wrote:

TMDaines wrote:You make it seem like I don't take all take into account before commenting - I do.

You have a strange way of showing this given the tone and style of your remarks. But let's stop the infighting on this thread - feel free to continue this on another more appropriate thread or PM me if you like.

I already mentioned that I think mfunk has a very valid argument and in the end if they had put Jubal as an extra to 3:10 to Yuma I would have gladly bought it as well. My argument is that both 3:10 and Jubal are major entries into Delmer Daves' career while Killer's Kiss doesn't hold the same position in Kubrick's.

But the pricing of Jubal is very much in line with CC's other bare bones BDs that are released as standalone discs, so the real argument that people have made here is whether 3:10 deserves the higher price point given the scarcity of the extras on that disc - and that I think is an extremely valid point that I can't disagree with.

Yeah, i'm not sure how we got from "3:10 to Yuma has two short interviews yet got the higher price point...what a rip off" to "Jubal isn't worthy of a spine #!" The latter is something no one actually said...it was merely suggested that 3:10 should EITHER have ALSO been a $29.95 title OR they could have packaged the two together as they have with other things at times. That's not to disparage Jubal, but a desire for some consistency and a bit of head scratching over why they are charge so much for 3:10.

I haven't seen anyone suggest Jubal doesn't "deserve" a spine #...but if I have the option of 2 movies w/ 2 spine #s for $35 or 2 movies with 1 spine # for $20 or $25 i'm going to take the latter every time.

Furthermore, I just noticed that, despite being quite longer than 3:10, Jubal is even denied a BD-50, which is the first time, I think, that Criterion releases a bare-bones BD with the movie not getting the maximum possible video bitrate.

Valid points on both sides of this divide. Let me further muddy the water and and express the opinion that an opportunity was missed in not also licensing COWBOY and issuing a three title Daves/Ford go west at Columbia at a price point cominsurate with the lack of available extras. Perhaps with a larger than average booklet with new essays (or reprints) from appropriate authors. There were more than one way to skin this particular cat.

Props55 wrote: Let me further muddy the water and and express the opinion that an opportunity was missed in not also licensing COWBOY and issuing a three title Daves/Ford go west at Columbia at a price point cominsurate with the lack of available extras.

That really is a missed opportunity as all 3 titles are available on DVD, but Cowboy is the one in the wrong aspect ratio. Issuing that on Blu in the correct AR would have been greatly appreciated.

Not sure if anyone has noticed this, but Jubal is available for free in HD via Comcast On Demand (It's under the FREE movies section). The picture looks more like SD upconverted, however.

Given the comical lack of attention paid to these releases by Criterion, is it possible that they were part of a package deal with Sony ("We'll let you license X titles but you gotta take these as part of the arrangement") and Criterion got stuck with films it had little interest in working on? Because I cannot for the life of me explain away Jubal's treatment without involving conspiracy theories

domino harvey wrote:Given the comical lack of attention paid to these releases by Criterion, is it possible that they were part of a package deal with Sony ("We'll let you license X titles but you gotta take these as part of the arrangement") and Criterion got stuck with films it had little interest in working on? Because I cannot for the life of me explain away Jubal's treatment without involving conspiracy theories

By "comical lack of attention" do you mean the lack of quality on the actual disc with regards to extras and presentation values? Or do you mean a general disinterest in the release by outlets online?

For my grandfather these releases have proven to be totally invaluable. He made me purchase them day one and I'm waiting to fly back to California just to watch them on BD with him. The releases might be lacking some punch with regards to the Criterion standard but at least we have them here on Blu-ray, looking pristine and watchable for the catered audience.