The Hierarchy of Preferred Languages for Art House Releases

[tag gallagher]

It mattered a lot to actors, many of whom fought to have their own voices used.
It was also a stipulation at the Venice Festival that principal roles had to have the actors' own voices.
It also matters to me, and I think to many people even in Italy, if a principal actor's own voice is used or not, so I don't go along with your contention that, simply because the director or someone else didn't care, "it didn't really matter."
I think each case may be different, and you have to decide for yourself what matters, based on your experience of the results.
My point was that audiences worldwide prefer by a large majority dubbing over subtitles.

[tag gallagher]

In Italy, I saw many times The Searchers dubbed in Italian.
From the point of view of the distributor, you are right that it doesn't matter whose voice comes out of John Wayne, even though his regular Italian dubber sounds nothing like John Wayne, but more like a head waiter, and that the character in the film is totally altered, because the distributor knows that he won't make any money if he uses Wayne's own voice and subtitles; so he doesn't care whose voice it is.

But it is a far leap from this to say that, therefore, it doesn't matter whose voice it is -- artistically.
Many actors act with their voice, and this is one of them.
Change the voice, you obliterate the performance, obliterate Ford's movie.

[manicsounds]

I always thought the Italian method of dubbing actors was because of these points:

1. Studios never did the sound upgrade, so the movie studios didn't properly adequate their stages for sound recording.
2. If they got a multi-national cast, it would be easier to market to foreign territories with those respective actors performances.

China/Hong Kong frequently does this as well, with Cantonese actors speaking Cantonese/Mandarin actors speaking Mandarin during the same scene, and later dubbed over to create a Mandarin dub and a Cantonese dub. Even "Red Cliff" cast Shido Nakamura, who spoke Japanese for his lines and later dubbed over to Chinese. Obviously in the Japanese dubbed version, he had his own voice while everyone else was dubbed to Japanese.

[tag gallagher]

Maybe there's some truth here. But in fact some films were made with direct sound, for example, Ophuls's La signora di tutti, 1934. I've no idea how many others. Or when direct sound ceased. Whenever I've asked, I've been told they didn't have the technicians. When Renoir came to Rome to make The Golden Coach he'd put it in his contract that they have direct sound, but they had to import technicians from France. (Renoir hated dubbing; it was his big grief against the French New Wave, whose films were mostly dubbed.) Same thing with Rossellini's Deutschland im Jahre Null, most of whose interiors were shot in Rome, but the crew was French and German. But other Rossellini films shot in direct sound used Italian crews ("The Chicken"; Joan of Arc). Also Italo-American co-productions, as well as hundreds of Anglo-American productions produced in Italy, naturally demanded direct sound, so it's unlikely that Italy's studios were incapable of direct sound, although the technicians may have been imported.

[Saimo]

But in fact some films were made with direct sound, for example, Ophuls's La signora di tutti, 1934. I've no idea how many others.

Most Italian films from 1931 to 1943 were shot with direct sound. During the war, Cinecittà studios were closed and technical equipment was destroyed or robbed by the Nazis. So Neorealist directors simply couldn't afford sound equipment and soundstages... In the '50s, direct sound was sometimes adopted in comedies starring Totò or Alberto Sordi, in order to record their ad-libs, but still it was fairly uncommon in melodramas and action films (also because of international casting, of course). Moreover, directors and producers often hired a well known dubber voice in order to make up for an unknown actor's face (for example, Pietro Germi in Il ferroviere is dubbed by James Stewart's Italian voice). There is also a melodrama I have studied, Nel gorgo del peccato (1954), where director Cottafavi tried to hire Rina Morelli as his leading lady, but since she wasn't available, he casted another actress and then had Rina Morelli dubbing her voice!
In the late '70s, a new generation of comedian arose (the so-called "malincomici", i.e. melanchomic), and since they often directed by themselves their own films, they demanded live sound. A new generation of sound engineers thus arose too, and soon also the most aspiring directors started working with direct sound.

[TMDaines]

In Italy, I saw many times The Searchers dubbed in Italian.
From the point of view of the distributor, you are right that it doesn't matter whose voice comes out of John Wayne, even though his regular Italian dubber sounds nothing like John Wayne, but more like a head waiter, and that the character in the film is totally altered, because the distributor knows that he won't make any money if he uses Wayne's own voice and subtitles; so he doesn't care whose voice it is.

But it is a far leap from this to say that, therefore, it doesn't matter whose voice it is -- artistically.
Many actors act with their voice, and this is one of them.
Change the voice, you obliterate the performance, obliterate Ford's movie.

I don't disagree at all, but at the same time I simply putting the point across that filmmakers chose to dub people for artistic reasons too, even if the actor in question was perfectly capable of speaking the required language. It doesn't appear to have been the big deal over there as it would be here. It's standard practice, culturally speaking.

[tag gallagher]

Most Italian films from 1931 to 1943 were shot with direct sound.

Maybe "most," but not any titles I know, except La signora di tutti. Certainly none of Rossellini's. Could you cite a few well-known examples of direct-sound, please?

And do you know of any well-researched articles on this subject? (And what is your source for your statistic? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'd just like more info.)

[Saimo]

Most Italian films from 1931 to 1943 were shot with direct sound.

Maybe "most," but not any titles I know, except La signora di tutti. Certainly none of Rossellini's. Could you cite a few well-known examples of direct-sound, please?

Camerini-De Sica, Mattoli and Matarazzo comedies, Blasetti's early films (Terra madre, Nerone, 1860)...
Often you can find a couple of exterior scenes where dialogue was clearly post-synchronized, but for the most part you have live sound.

And do you know of any well-researched articles on this subject? (And what is your source for your statistic? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'd just like more info.)

I have read several articles about technical development in Italian cinema, especially in the Storia del Cinema Italiano collection. In volume IX Adriano Aprà also lists some direct sound films from the '50s: La terra trema, Bellissima, Le notti bianche (Visconti), Il cappotto (Lattuada), Nella città l'inferno (Castellani), La presidentessa (Germi). Also, a friend of mine (Giulio Bursi) is writing a book about Italian early talkies...

[R0lf]

Is there a dub for La Notte that includes Jeanne Moreau's voice?

[Saimo]

I would like to highlight an unusual operation by Gianni Amelio: he shot Colpire al cuore (Blow to the Heart, 1982) with Jean-Louis Trintignant speaking French, and he later dubbed him with an Italian voice, but for the DVD (2004) he also included as a bonus the original temporary direct-sound audiotrack, where you can hear each actor speaking his own language. I think this is an unicum, never heard of similar approach. A very instructive listening, since this is the way most classic Italian films were shot.

[MichaelB]

I would like to highlight an unusual operation by Gianni Amelio: he shot Colpire al cuore (Blow to the Heart, 1982) with Jean-Louis Trintignant speaking French, and he later dubbed him with an Italian voice, but for the DVD (2004) he also included as a bonus the original temporary direct-sound audiotrack, where you can hear each actor speaking his own language. I think this is an unicum, never heard of similar approach. A very instructive listening, since this is the way most classic Italian films were shot.

Arrow and Cult Epics' editions of Radley Metzger's The Lickerish Quartet includes an extra that allows us to hear a scene with the original location sound - which makes it obvious why two of the four leads ended up being dubbed!

[Orlac]

China/Hong Kong frequently does this as well, with Cantonese actors speaking Cantonese/Mandarin actors speaking Mandarin during the same scene, and later dubbed over to create a Mandarin dub and a Cantonese dub. Even "Red Cliff" cast Shido Nakamura, who spoke Japanese for his lines and later dubbed over to Chinese. Obviously in the Japanese dubbed version, he had his own voice while everyone else was dubbed to Japanese.

For most of the 1970s, Hong Kong films were only shown in Mandarin, despite the fact that Cantonese is the predominant Chinese dialect of the colony. Bruce Lee's films were all Mandarin releases only, for example.

The trouble was, most of the Mandarin dubbings seemed to be 3 old men speaking very slowly and poshly, taking the momentum away from the films.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

That was true for the first few years of the seventies. Cantonese production bottomed out at zero in 1972; House of the 72 Tenants brought it back the next year, and the numbers consistently went up until Cantonese finally outstripped Mandarin in 1977. Generally comedies were in Cantonese and the more serious stuff was in Mandarin. (The comedies were often more popular in Hong Kong than the po-faced kung-fu movies; Michael Hui films topped the box office every year from 1974 through 1976.)

Hong Kong is actually a lot like Italy, in that films were typically done with sync sound before post-syncing took over. Sync sound was normal up until the mid-'60s or so, then it almost entirely disappeared until the early '90s. Not only that, but even stars like Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee didn't dub their own characters. (The only movies where Lee does his own voice are the English versions of Enter the Dragon and Game of Death--though he supposedly dubbed the Mandarin voices of foreign characters in some of his other films!). And just like Italy, nobody really cared what language the actors spoke during shooting. Some used Cantonese, some used Mandarin, foreign actors might use English or Korean or whatever their native language was. That's why it's incredibly rare to find a Hong Kong film from this period where the dialogue is consistently in sync, in either the Cantonese or Mandarin versions. Sync sound is normal these days, though dubbing is still commonly used for mainland/Taiwanese actors speaking Cantonese or HK actors speaking Mandarin, and some filmmakers still post-sync almost everything (most notably Johnnie To).

[Orlac]

That was true for the first few years of the seventies. Cantonese production bottomed out at zero in 1972; House of the 72 Tenants brought it back the next year, and the numbers consistently went up until Cantonese finally outstripped Mandarin in 1977. Generally comedies were in Cantonese and the more serious stuff was in Mandarin. (The comedies were often more popular in Hong Kong than the po-faced kung-fu movies; Michael Hui films topped the box office every year from 1974 through 1976.)

Hong Kong is actually a lot like Italy, in that films were typically done with sync sound before post-syncing took over. Sync sound was normal up until the mid-'60s or so, then it almost entirely disappeared until the early '90s. Not only that, but even stars like Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee didn't dub their own characters. (The only movies where Lee does his own voice are the English versions of Enter the Dragon and Game of Death--though he supposedly dubbed the Mandarin voices of foreign characters in some of his other films!). And just like Italy, nobody really cared what language the actors spoke during shooting. Some used Cantonese, some used Mandarin, foreign actors might use English or Korean or whatever their native language was. That's why it's incredibly rare to find a Hong Kong film from this period where the dialogue is consistently in sync, in either the Cantonese or Mandarin versions. Sync sound is normal these days, though dubbing is still commonly used for mainland/Taiwanese actors speaking Cantonese or HK actors speaking Mandarin, and some filmmakers still post-sync almost everything (most notably Johnnie To).

That's not Bruce's voice in Game Of Death, that was recorded years after he died.

You can hear his real voice in the Mandarin version of Fist Of Fury (he voices the Russian) and in Way of the Dragon, he dubs the black thug and sometimes voices the Boss (notice the Boss initially speaks with the gruff voice of Ted Thomas then jumps to Bruce and then back again!)

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

You're right about Game of Death--I thought the Warrior's Journey version was Lee's voice, but it's actually John Little (doing a pretty good imitation, way better than the "Chris Kent" who dubbed the Golden Harvest version). I understand Lee intended to dub his own voice for both English and Cantonese versions.

[Cold Bishop]

The mid-to-late 20th century linguistic "battle" of the Hong Kong studios (and essentially, given the period, Chinese cinema) is one of the most fascinating aspects of the industry. It really encompasses and informs the various ebbs and flows of the industry and the type of films being made. You could write a book on the subject, and many of the "histories" on the era focus on it.

And it lasts up until fairly recent: it was still a pretty big deal when Jackie Chan, with Police Story III, finally decided to use synch sound. In fact, I think it may have been the first time his own voice was used in a film, regardless of dialect.

[rohmerin]

Herzog's Aguirre works better dubbed into Castilian Spanish. :-" for the subject, I suppose.
I swear I did tape in VHS Teorema and The conformist in English-language with Spanish subtitles, of course, those UK versions were shown in the public arty TV here in Egg-paña as Original soundtracks.

I agree that Ludwig needs a German soundtrack. May be Visconti's The damned WB dvd has got a German dubbing, I don't know. You can check it out.

All the Italian films before 1943 I've seen are with direct sound recording.

Latin American people usually don't understand very well Castilian Spanish, or it's for elite urban - hipster, art house audiences like the Latin american (except Argentinian) here in Spain, all the releases are very limited and we can not enjoy most of the films. They don't arrive except in festivals !!!! It's easier to find a Latin American film in a Paris cinema, than in Madrid. Sad but true.
Argentinian cinema is different may be because the accent is popular (because it's very sexy) or may be because there's a small star system there that we know.

My mother and older people don't understand what a Mexican, Colombian or whoever is saying... I don't have that problem, but Y tu mamá también, that is spoken in chilango (DF slang) absolutely needs subtitles even in Castilian. Probably I was the only Spaniard who watch the film and could understand all, and laugh.

The new and dreadful last Almodóvar's I don't know how hell will be understood in the Spanish Americas because they talk so fast, and so slang, that no sé, no sé.

[Orlac]

The mid-to-late 20th century linguistic "battle" of the Hong Kong studios (and essentially, given the period, Chinese cinema) is one of the most fascinating aspects of the industry. It really encompasses and informs the various ebbs and flows of the industry and the type of films being made. You could write a book on the subject, and many of the "histories" on the era focus on it.

And it lasts up until fairly recent: it was still a pretty big deal when Jackie Chan, with Police Story III, finally decided to use synch sound. In fact, I think it may have been the first time his own voice was used in a film, regardless of dialect.

Jackie had done his own voice for the English language films The Big Brawl and The Protector. Funny how it was such a novelty at the time. I mean, you look at the Cantonese versions of Police Story or Armour Of God and it's so obvious that's not Jackie's voice, not least because his voice is heard in the end title songs!

[Orlac]

You're right about Game of Death--I thought the Warrior's Journey version was Lee's voice, but it's actually John Little (doing a pretty good imitation, way better than the "Chris Kent" who dubbed the Golden Harvest version). I understand Lee intended to dub his own voice for both English and Cantonese versions.

One of my bête nories on DVD is John Little dubbing Bruce being stuck into the opening of Enter The Dragon. Sounds fake and completely upsets the pace of the pre-credits scene.

Speaking of Chris Kent, I first saw Game Of Death in its Cantonese version and it was this that made me a kung fu cinema fan. It probably helped that they used genuine Bruce Lee fighting cries rather then some kid going "wu dah!" over and over again!

[Zot!]

Herzog's Aguirre works better dubbed into Castilian Spanish. :-" for the subject, I suppose.
I swear I did tape in VHS Teorema and The conformist in English-language with Spanish subtitles, of course, those UK versions were shown in the public arty TV here in Egg-paña as Original soundtracks.

I agree that Ludwig needs a German soundtrack. May be Visconti's The damned WB dvd has got a German dubbing, I don't know. You can check it out.

All the Italian films before 1943 I've seen are with direct sound recording.

Latin American people usually don't understand very well Castilian Spanish, or it's for elite urban - hipster, art house audiences like the Latin american (except Argentinian) here in Spain, all the releases are very limited and we can not enjoy most of the films. They don't arrive except in festivals !!!! It's easier to find a Latin American film in a Paris cinema, than in Madrid. Sad but true.
Argentinian cinema is different may be because the accent is popular (because it's very sexy) or may be because there's a small star system there that we know.

My mother and older people don't understand what a Mexican, Colombian or whoever is saying... I don't have that problem, but Y tu mamá también, that is spoken in chilango (DF slang) absolutely needs subtitles even in Castilian. Probably I was the only Spaniard who watch the film and could understand all, and laugh.

The new and dreadful last Almodóvar's I don't know how hell will be understood in the Spanish Americas because they talk so fast, and so slang, that no sé, no sé.

This is true for some English language films as well. As an American, I watch something like Kes with subtitles. What I found funny when I was in France was that they dubbed mainstream American films for the smaller cities, but subbed the same release in Paris. More surprising, in retrospect, I can't believe I managed to strongarm a surly Brittany-coast theater manager into giving me a full refund once I discovered this.

[Saimo]

All the Italian films before 1943 I've seen are with direct sound recording.

Looking closely at this (amazing) scene in Vittorio Cottafavi's Our Dreams (1943) you can actually verify the direct-sound approach, especially at 00:14, when the actor moves away from the microphone and the volume of his speech progressively changes. Also, at the end, you can distinctly hear the camera rolling.
http://youtu.be/nKMFZjY806M" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;