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David M. wrote:Which "sparkling noise" scenes are you referring to, so we can be sure we're on the same page?

Well there's all sorts of examples in NOSFERATU and AGUIRRE...

The worst scene in NOSFERATU is when Jonathan is instructed by Renfield to go on the trip.
Between the two there's a banister that sparkles (snows) like crazy.
But...since all the BDs have this I assume it was a flaw in the recording.

So let's take the opening scene with the Mexican cadavers...on the BFI the light reflections actually sparkle a little where it's been cleaned up in the SHOUT!

BTW~what's wrong with the JAWS BD as Spielberg himself approved it I believe.

I'm now thinking that many of these older films are just not meant for BluRay.
Like a Seurat painting one needs to stand back to see the bigger picture much like sitting in a theater.
So if a plate in a Art book only shows a close-up all we see are dots.

This is sounding increasingly wrong headed. Dots in a reproduction of a painting are an artefact of reproduction; film grain IS the film image. Reproducing it on a BluRay is exactly what a conscientious transfer should do. Maybe you just don't like film grain?

zedz wrote:Maybe you just don't like film grain?

Grain wasn't even an issue for me until certain Blurays like DJANGO came out.

Koukol wrote:I'm now thinking that many of these older films are just not meant for BluRay.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, try a new movie like Hurt Locker, I think you will agree that it ups the ante on grain. Intentionally. It has nothing to do with the age of a movie. Just look at MOCs Joan of arc, which is quite grain free.

Koukol wrote:I'm now thinking that many of these older films are just not meant for BluRay.

"Older films" have a far greater native resolution than BluRay. There's absolutely no reason why they'd be less suited to an hd format than any other film shot on film.

zedz wrote:

Koukol wrote:I'm now thinking that many of these older films are just not meant for BluRay.

"Older films" have a far greater native resolution than BluRay. There's absolutely no reason why they'd be less suited to an hd format than any other film shot on film.

Holy cow Koukol, have you taken a look at some of the silent films that have been released on blu ray? They are stunning. Not to mention many of films from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Especially the films where the elements are in good condition.

Grain wasn't even an issue for me until certain Blurays like DJANGO came out.

are you sure you have the settings on your TV and Blu-Ray player set correctly? because DJANGO was the first Blu-Ray I bought, and it looked horrendous, every shot obscured by swirling clouds of "grain"—until I realized that it was a combination of sharpness-enhancement and motion-smoothing settings on my TV that were at fault. once fixed, the film looked quite good. grainy, sure, but that's an artefact of the conditions of filming and it's no worse than on many films of that and other eras.

if you're wary of native film grain, then by gosh do not buy the Masters of Cinema Blu-Ray of Ruggles of Red Gap.

FrauBlucher wrote:

zedz wrote:

Koukol wrote:I'm now thinking that many of these older films are just not meant for BluRay.

"Older films" have a far greater native resolution than BluRay. There's absolutely no reason why they'd be less suited to an hd format than any other film shot on film.

Holy cow Koukol, have you taken a look at some of the silent films that have been released on blu ray? They are stunning. Not to mention many of films from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Especially the films where the elements are in good condition.

Yeah, that WAS dumb of me to say.
I've got most of the German Silents and I'm quite happy with them.

I'm just pondering on why some BluRays look fantastic to me and others seem too grainy.
I know films like VAMPYR, ERASERHEAD and FRENCH CONNECTION are meant to be grainy but I THINK a lot directors are like Spielberg where they don't want to let grain get in the way.

Don't get me wrong I don't expect films of yesteryear to look like the films being made today when it comes to clarity and I'm NOT afraid of some grain. (I watched BARRY LYNDON last night and was thrilled) In fact I'm happy with all my Kubrick BDs.
But compare the Criterion BD of VAMPYR with the UK (is that yours, David?)... the Criterion wins for me because of the careful clean-up.(I have both)

I'm coming from the view of a photographer so when I watch a black n white I'm looking for the blackest blacks and a crisp picture like an Ansel Adams yet when intentional a dreamy grain like a Ralph Gibson.

Bottom line is I want what the Directer intended and unfortunately Herzog endorsed both the BFI AND SHOUT!

I'm enjoying this discussion.

BTW~Jonah...I brought up DJANGO as an example of a horrible snowy BD.

Koukol wrote:

zedz wrote:Maybe you just don't like film grain?

Grain wasn't even an issue for me until certain Blurays like DJANGO came out.

That isn't grain. That's telecine noise that's been edge enhanced, on top of a median filtered image. There is a big, big difference.

Would you mind taking a cameraphone picture of your TV's picture settings? Just to be sure?

The DJANGO disc is definetly rubbish in my view. And that's the fault of poor transfer.

So, you're wrong Kukol.

Yes the point should be made that the Django disc is not considered good at all, and is filled with the same tube telecine noise that has been pointed out on the City of the Living Dead disc. What we find perplexing Koukol is that this is not at all the case with Nosferatu or Aguirre, which feature something entirely different looking, whilst you seem to feel they all "suffer" from the same "problem".

OK,

there's a REAL possibility that CITY and DJANGO (and their likes) have made me very sensitive to ANY specks.
I must admit that before now I confused grain with noise since the dnr on my Oppo can get rid of grain.

EddieLarkin wrote:Yes the point should be made that the Django disc is not considered good at all, and is filled with the same tube telecine noise that has been pointed out on the City of the Living Dead disc. What we find perplexing Koukol is that this is not at all the case with Nosferatu or Aguirre, which feature something entirely different looking, whilst you seem to feel they all "suffer" from the same "problem".

Yes, I thought they suffered from the same effect but to various degrees.