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Thanks! I bought the German arthaus disc meanwhile and can confirm that that also looks much closer to the SF Film than to CC, according to those caps (perhaps a little more red in the arthaus than in the SF, but certainly not like the CC). That this is also non-anamorphic isn't much of a problem either. Too bad one has to keep the CC for the excellent audiocommentary. As this is probably seen as comparatively minor Bergman, it's unlikely that CC will re-do it any time soon, though the films from that period would certainly be a chance to put on some unseen extras, e.g. about the tax affair and his subsequent move to Germany. "Farö Document" (from 1979) would also be a good extra for a re-release.

Moe Dickstein wrote:Autumn Sonata page is up - big new extra in the 3.5 hour making of and a great new cover!

http://www.criterion.com/films/605-autu ... tocomplete" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A 93 minute movie plus a 210 minute making-of... 303 minutes right there, plus all the other extras on the same disc... no cause for alarm? A few hours off from Last Emperor, but still...

If the extras are 1080i or SD then perhaps not?

It's also only a mono soundtrack. That helps save space.

Never been a favorite Bergman title for me, but I'm all in for the Blu upgrade based on the making-of alone. Can't ever get enough footage of Bergman working or of him and his collaborators talking about the process.

Yeah, I'm also much more excited by the extended making-of than by the prospect of seeing the parent film again.

I think that documentary may be SD. Regardless, it was referenced in Jerry Vermilye's book.

"During the filming of Autumn Sonata, Bergman also filmed a documentary of its making. And although Ingrid later saw it on a visit to the director's Fårö home - and termed it 'the best documentary on the making of a movie I've ever seen' - it has, to date, not been shown publicly."

hearthesilence wrote:I think that documentary may be SD. Regardless, it was referenced in Jerry Vermilye's book.

"During the filming of Autumn Sonata, Bergman also filmed a documentary of its making. And although Ingrid later saw it on a visit to the director's Fårö home - and termed it 'the best documentary on the making of a movie I've ever seen' - it has, to date, not been shown publicly."

probably gonna be better than the movie itself.

So this is actually an unreleased Bergman film? Quite a coup, at this late stage.

Oh yeah, but I wonder if Bergman filmed or taped many of his theatrical productions. He was arguably a greater theater director than a film director. (I say that not because I've seen any of his stage productions but some like Jonathan Rosenbaum have argued that point.) If there is an archive somewhere, I'd love to see some of them, either in their own set or appropriately paired up with one of his films.

Gah, this is my favorite Bergman, guess I'm lonely on that one. The making of is SO exciting, and the cover art is beautiful

Not entirely lonely (though I prefer The Magician and Silence). It was actually my first Bergman (and probably first subbed film) seeing it on HBO some time in the '90s.

Any Bergman on Blu is welcomed by me, but in this case I can't wait to see the documentary, hey, I would have bought that on its own.

It's one of my favorite Bergmans as well. Great to see it getting the bluray upgrade and a new Bergman film to boot.

hearthesilence wrote:I wonder if Bergman filmed or taped many of his theatrical productions

At least a handful were filmed and shown on Swedish TV, usually shot in a studio with no audience, but very clearly showing their theatrical origins, and presented as theatre. He would sometimes use some cinematic technique that wouldn't be feasible on stage though -- I remember a moment in Madame de Sade where he cuts from the "stage" to archive footage in the middle of a scene.

The Image Makers was released on DVD by Tartan in the UK on one of their editions of The Phantom Carriage (not the one with the KTL soundtrack). There's also a Spanish edition. If anyone here owns any of those, I'd love to know if the subtitles are optional. The only Swedish DVD release I'm aware of is The Ghost Sonata as part of a big Strindberg set (probably no subtitles). There's also The School for Wives in a Molière set, but I'm not sure it counts since Bergman was not the director of the stage production. (Alf Sjöberg was, though he died before the opening and the actors just continued directing themselves. Bergman then directed the TV version.)

ola t wrote: The Image Makers was released on DVD by Tartan in the UK on one of their editions of The Phantom Carriage (not the one with the KTL soundtrack). There's also a Spanish edition. If anyone here owns any of those, I'd love to know if the subtitles are optional.

English subs optional on the Tartan. No option on the menu screen, but they are easily removable by the player's remote.

Thanks!

Matt wrote:It's also only a mono soundtrack. That helps save space.

Even if it always help, we're talking about saving a few GBs at best (especially since the movie is only 93 min). It would be going from about 2.5 Gbs (93 min at 3500 kbps) to 800 Mbs.
In any case, it's still a question of having 5hr+ of HD video on the same disc. We saw what happenned on Fanny & Alexander, Carlos, and now on Shoah.
All 3 releases have low average video bitrates (17.99 Mbps for F&A, 22 Mbps for Carlos, 19 Mbps for Shoah), and all three present the same compression issues. Unsurprisingly, most of the Criterion titles are encoded at a minimum of 28 Mbps average, usually maxing out the video bitrate at 35 Mbps average.

If they go with this cheap choice again (which they could also have applied to Heaven's Gate and The Night of the Hunter, but chose not to), it's just that Criterion doesn't know how to handle properly this amount of data without compromising the main movie which is utterly silly since most studios (Warner, Paramount, Sony, FOX) perfectly knows how to deliver perfect transfers even at a 20 Mbps average video bitrate.

So either Criterion needs to start working on properly mastering the workflow at such unusual bitrates for them, or they need to go the extra step and put the 3h30 making of on a 2nd disc. I'm sure people will still be willing to pay an extra $5-7 to get all these extra material, while a lot will be disappointed if they screw (again) the movie encode.

Or, they will simply encode the making of in SD, and then solve very simply any disc space problem.

tenia wrote:Or, they will simply encode the making of in SD, and then solve very simply any disc space problem.

Looking at their past approach to extras such as on discs like The Leopard and Battle of Algiers, as well as apparently Shoah now, I'd bet it's upscaled SD.

vsski wrote:

tenia wrote:Or, they will simply encode the making of in SD, and then solve very simply any disc space problem.

Looking at their past approach to extras such as on discs like The Leopard and Battle of Algiers, as well as apparently Shoah now, I'd bet it's upscaled SD.

It's very likely to be.
On the other end, which extras of Shoah are upscaled SD ? I'd be disappointed if the 2 extra movies are.

Chris's recent review says "All three [bonus] films look to be standard-definition upscales."

swo17 wrote:Chris's recent review says "All three [bonus] films look to be standard-definition upscales."

Thanks for pointing this line out, I indeed missed it when reading the review.
Quite disappointing, so.

vsski wrote:

tenia wrote:Or, they will simply encode the making of in SD, and then solve very simply any disc space problem.

Looking at their past approach to extras such as on discs like The Leopard and Battle of Algiers, as well as apparently Shoah now, I'd bet it's upscaled SD.

If this is a film that's never been previously released on home video, and Criterion have to create a new transfer, I can't see why this wouldn't be doing so in HD. Unless the materials don't allow for it (e.g. it only survives on video tape).

EDIT: Also (and I'm no expert on such matters), wouldn't an upscaled SD transfer (i.e. faux-HD) take up approximately as much disk space as one that's native HD?

zedz wrote:

vsski wrote:

tenia wrote:Or, they will simply encode the making of in SD, and then solve very simply any disc space problem.

Looking at their past approach to extras such as on discs like The Leopard and Battle of Algiers, as well as apparently Shoah now, I'd bet it's upscaled SD.

If this is a film that's never been previously released on home video, and Criterion have to create a new transfer, I can't see why this wouldn't be doing so in HD. Unless the materials don't allow for it (e.g. it only survives on video tape).

EDIT: Also (and I'm no expert on such matters), wouldn't an upscaled SD transfer (i.e. faux-HD) take up approximately as much disk space as one that's native HD?

Depends on the bitrate. It shouldn't take quite as much as it shouldn't need such a high bitrate, but I don't believe the upscaling really adds anything anyway and it just bloats the disc out.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but I don't understand how the upscaling that Criterion do, could really achieve a far greater result than what our equipment would do automatically. We were kind of talking about this in the The Leopard thread the othe day.

TMDaines wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but I don't understand how the upscaling that Criterion do, could really achieve a far greater result than what our equipment would do automatically. We were kind of talking about this in the The Leopard thread the othe day.

It's not going to be far greater. The two advantages are:
1. Their professional upscaler is theoretically going to do a better job.
2.The higher-quality BD compression can be applied after the upscale, rather than before, otherwise you are upscaling SD compression artifacts.

I think it is ridiculous to waste on typical extras, especially at the detriment of the feature. Perhaps in the case of a bonus film or short, I think it might be worth it.