Werner Herzog Documentaries

[Gordon]

Grizzly Man will be shown at the "Tempo Documentary Festival" in Stockholm 9-13 November, along with

Land of Silence and Darkness, Little Dieter Needs to Fly, My Best Friend, The White Diamond, The Great Ecstasy of Woodcarver Steiner, The Dark Glow of the Mountain, Lessons of Darkness and Bells from the Deep

http://www.tempofestival.nu/

That sounds so amazing! The Dark Glow of the Mountain is very hard to see and is a beautiful film. Bells from the Deep is long overdue on DVD with Herzog commentary.

[Michael]

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[Michael]

I wrote:

I just watched Herzog's Grizzly Man. I had to pause the movie at least 5 times to compose myself. When it ended, I was left in an utter mess. Throughout the film, I kept thinking there was no way I could finish it. Why this film affected me so profoundly still escapes me.

Andre Jurieu wrote:

Grizzly Man enduces tears? Seriously? I can't fault an honest reaction, but I thought it was hilarious and pathetic, more than it was tragic. Oh well, I guess comedy = tragedy.

What I saw Treadwell was simply a guy who passionately chased after a dream.. the dream that ultimately killed him in the end, like Selma in Dancer in the Dark. I really don't know since I had just finished watching Grizzly Man. The film really threw me off with its deeply consuming power.

[tryavna]

In a way, Treadwell's story has the substance of tragedy in the strictest classical sense. One could view his attraction to danger and his belief in his own personal connection with the bears as a form of hubris. And just like tragic heroes, what made Treadwell a larger-than-life figure (and so fascinating) was simultaneously what made him so flawed. I guess there's always a quality in any tragic figure (be they Greek, Shakespearean, or modern) that makes us shake our heads in disbelief and bewilderment at the same time that we are moved by the story of their life.

[Michael]

Did anyone get Treadwell's obvious homosexuality? Throughout the film, I kept saying that he gotta be gay.

I've always noticed that straight men NEVER say things like that - "it's a good thing I'm straight...I almost WISH I were gay, it would be easier"blah blah blah. The people who always say that usually, in just a few years' time, wind up dancing on the speakers at the gay club or ducking into the back room for some man-on-man action. I thought the film was TERRIFIC but one of the things that made it so fascinating was his obvious homosexuality. I think bears, to him, was like Christianity to a lot of closeted fags - they can't deal with their desires, so they replace it with this huge, overpowering obsession.

The fact that he couldn't accept his homosexuality might help explain his "suicidal insanity".

[Michael Kerpan]

Michael -- I don't think I agree. I felt that this "maybe I'm gay" was purely histrionic. He also claimed, at the same time, that he was all alone in the wilderness -- when in fact he was not.

[Michael]

I felt that this "maybe I'm gay" was purely histrionic. He also claimed, at the same time, that he was all alone in the wilderness -- when in fact he was not.

Of course. He couldn't accept his homosexuality until his death.

Even my partner got the same impression as I did. I asked six gay friends of mine who had seen the movie (here, NY and CA) and the funny thing is that they got all the same impression also.

[Michael Kerpan]

Well -- I think one of the _virtues_ of Herzog's film is that it leaves so much open-ended. I guess this just needs to go on to the list of "open questions" (at least for me). ;~}

[Michael]

Absolutely, Michael! Grizzly Man works on so many levels, just like the rest of Herzog's films.

[ben d banana]

Yes, I thought being a closet case was quite likely one of Treadwell's many troubles. But just take a look at the type of folks who also agree (from the anyone up for some cattiness about criterionforum.com thread):

Some guy over at .com said this about GRIZZLY MAN, I just think it needs to be read by more people in the world:

"I actually did watch it again because they show it a bunch of times on TV and my parents taped it. I give it around a 9/10 because on the second viewing, even though the guy is still very annoying, it seems that he is just a great character with his rant in the tent and his constant talking like he is NOT gay! He talks like a gay man who is trying to talk like what he thinks a straight gay would talk like. Not that theres anything wrong with that. The movie is much different the second time. And him saying he is very very good in bed. Hilarious!"

By the way, I don't know if that's what helped make Treadwell's story so tear inducing for you (I'm with Andre, a great many assholes passionately chase their dream), but I found The White Diamond to be a better, more beautiful, touching and tragic film.

[Michael Kerpan]

I personally would not want to do without either "Grizzly Man" OR "white Diamond". ;~}

[Andre Jurieu]

What I saw Treadwell was simply a guy who passionately chased after a dream.. the dream that ultimately killed him in the end...

My problem with Treadwell, is that his "dream" feels artificial and appears constructed mostly to satisfy his own ego. His goal to provide protection for the Grizzly is a worthy one, but given his deliberate construction of his "lone-wolf" persona in service of his own fame (he was an unsuccessful actor), it feels like an entirely hollow, self-servicing, ambition. His environmentalism is much more effective at protecting his own personality than it is at providing protection for the bears.

Did anyone get Treadwell's obvious homosexuality? Throughout the film, I kept saying that he gotta be gay... I've always noticed that straight men NEVER say things like that - "it's a good thing I'm straight...I almost WISH I were gay, it would be easier"blah blah blah... The fact that he couldn't accept his homosexuality might help explain his "suicidal insanity".

The idea that Treadwell might be gay crossed my mind while I was watching the film, but it's also closely related to the fact that Treadwell constructs his own "sensitive lone-wolf" personality, which turns out to be a complete fabrication.

...but I found The White Diamond to be a better, more beautiful, touching and tragic film.

I also enjoyed The White Diamond, though I did find Herzog's argument with Dorrington to be slightly contrived, or at least a bit forced for dramatic purposes. I do know that I would rather be stranded with Dorrington in the rainforest rather than forced to endure Treadwell's ranting out in the wilderness. After about 10 minutes, I would probably have to smack Treadwell upside the head just to keep my own sanity (I think that's the same reflex that makes it impossible for me to take Tom Cavanagh for more than 5 consecutive minutes).

I guess there's always a quality in any tragic figure (be they Greek, Shakespearean, or modern) that makes us shake our heads in disbelief and bewilderment at the same time that we are moved by the story of their life.

Very true, though I'm sure I fall into the "shaking my head in disbelief and bewilderment" camp.

[ben d banana]

I personally would not want to do without either "Grizzly Man" OR "white Diamond". ;~}

No argument here.

...but I found The White Diamond to be a better, more beautiful, touching and tragic film.

I also enjoyed The White Diamond, though I did find Herzog's argument with Dorrington to be slightly contrived, or at least a bit forced for dramatic purposes.

Well there's no doubt you have a more analytical, amongst other things, mind than I, who was caught up in the story, but I do believe that's the sort of thing one has to expect from Herzog. He doesn't have to pull a damn boat over a hill to tell a story involving it, but...

I do know that I would rather be stranded with Dorrington in the rainforest rather than forced to endure Treadwell's ranting out in the wilderness. After about 10 minutes, I would probably have to smack Treadwell upside the head just to keep my own sanity (I think that's the same reflex that makes it impossible for me to take Tom Cavanagh for more than 5 consecutive minutes).

I knew I was the only one watching Love Monkey, although mostly despite Cavanagh. Wearing a baseball cap, or worse, a beret type thingy, backwards is confident and cool? I'll stick to self-deprecating nerd thank you very much.

[jesus the mexican boi]

What I saw Treadwell was simply a guy who passionately chased after a dream.. the dream that ultimately killed him in the end...

My problem with Treadwell, is that his "dream" feels artificial and appears constructed mostly to satisfy his own ego. His goal to provide protection for the Grizzly is a worthy one, but given his deliberate construction of his "lone-wolf" persona in service of his own fame (he was an unsuccessful actor), it feels like an entirely hollow, self-servicing, ambition. His environmentalism is much more effective at protecting his own personality than it is at providing protection for the bears.

Therein lies the tragedy: Treadwell ignores the elephant in the room; namely, the fact that his quest, his "dream," is ultimately misguided, false, wrong. He is powerless to protect these animals. In fact, they're not really under attack there. Herzog points out that only once in the hours of footage do poachers appear. Believing in something so intensely, (I even suspect a certain affinity to great fantasists like the Brontes, who as children created whole kingdoms and devised elaborate histories for them) Treadwell manages to make his "dream" into reality. There's even the child-like, Adamic "naming of the animals," as a boy-child might baptize his teddys: Mr. Chocolate, etc. This might be seen as egotistical, but Treadwell's egotism is markedly different from our normal understanding of the word. It's a fragile egotism, in its way, fragile only in its softspoken, 98-lb-weakling, it-would-be-soooooo-easy-to-be-gay-but-I'm-really-REALLY-not sensibility. I just watched it again a couple of nights ago, and I find it incredibly engrossing. Also, and perhaps this fits in the WH/Sound of Bliss thread, but the extra doc on the making of the soundtrack features lots of great fly-on-the-studio-wall footage and plenty of WH's mellifluous tones. That, and Richard Thompson is a gentle genius on the fretboard.[/i]

[Michael]

By the way, I don't know if that's what helped make Treadwell's story so tear inducing for you (I'm with Andre, a great many assholes passionately chase their dream),

It's not so much about Treadwell that makes it tear-inducing. Like I said before, I had no idea why the film affected me so much but later I learned that it had to do mostly with the way Herzog handled the material. He somehow created a very beautiful, strange poem by piecing together some of the footages filmed by Treadwell.. so in the end what we get from Grizzly Man is not the vision that belongs to Treadwell. It's Herzog's ultimately pure vision. There are so many scenes that I love.. especially the one in which Herzog listens to the audiotape of Aimee's final scream as the camera fixates on the ex-girlfriend's face the whole time. That scene sent the chills down my spine.. so much that I had to take a break from watching the film. Ironically Aimee's scream is never heard in the scene and the scene succeeds in so many ways that there is no need for Aimee's scream to be heard, many thanks to Herzog's respect for Aimee and of course his genius.

Sure, Treadwell was an asshole but I think we all have a bit of "him" in us. Yes, he went way too extreme.. but for the most excellent reason that I elaborated on earlier on this page.

[Michael]

Don't you think that Herzog deliberately cut in footage of Treadwell working on a "Pansy Farm" (according to the sign) and boarding the "Queen Mary"? Most likely to underscore the conflicted nature of his sexual orientation.

[carax09]

I think this line of argument that Treadwell was a repressed homosexual is off-base. It doesn't make you gay to say you wish you were because that would make it easier to get laid. He seemed to have what I consider a pretty healthy attitude toward his (and others) sexual orientation based on what Herzog chose to show. He didn't seem repressed in any way, actually and that is a big part of what makes him so engaging a character. And this whole business with The Pansy Farm and the Queen Mary is just such a reach, it's not even funny!

[Andre Jurieu]

Therein lies the tragedy: Treadwell ignores the elephant in the room; namely, the fact that his quest, his "dream," is ultimately misguided, false, wrong. He is powerless to protect these animals. In fact, they're not really under attack there. Herzog points out that only once in the hours of footage do poachers appear. Believing in something so intensely, Treadwell manages to make his "dream" into reality. There's even the child-like, Adamic "naming of the animals," as a boy-child might baptize his teddys: Mr. Chocolate, etc.

I agree that this type of mentality is somewhat tragic. Personally, it just seems more like a tragedy that is pathetically misguided. It's the type of tragedy created mostly through dramatic irony.

This might be seen as egotistical, but Treadwell's egotism is markedly different from our normal understanding of the word. It's a fragile egotism, in its way, fragile only in its softspoken, 98-lb-weakling, it-would-be-soooooo-easy-to-be-gay-but-I'm-really-REALLY-not sensibility.

I would say most egotism is fragile in some fashion, especially considering the most entrenched egotism is usually fuelled by severe insecurity.

It's Herzog's ultimately pure vision.

I have my doubts that it's that pure.

...especially the one in which Herzog listens to the audiotape of Aimee's final scream as the camera fixates on the ex-girlfriend's face the whole time. That scene sent the chills down my spine.. so much that I had to take a break from watching the film.

Like the Dorrington argument in The White Diamond, the above mentioned scene struck me as a bit embellished for Herzog's dramatic purposes. I also didn't entirely buy Treadwell's ex-girlfriend reactions, which at times felt like performance. During these scenes I couldn't help but think of how Treadwell had constructed his own reality. However, as ben stated before it's the sort of thing one has to expect from Herzog who so often plays around with cinematic fact and fiction for his own purposes.

[Andre Jurieu]

For a different take on Grizzly Man, here's ESPN's Sports Guy Bill Simmons writing about the doc while addressing e-mails:

You have to write a story about 'Grizzly Man.' It's supposed to be a serious documentary about a guy who lives in Alaska every summer with the bears (who eventually eat him). It's hilarious at every level from the absolute wing-nut bear lover, to the pretentious German filmaker, and the wacky casts of friends that get interviewed and tell non-sensical stories about him. The message boards at imdb.com are a fight between the naturalists who think it was a beautiful movie and those who think this was better than 'Spinal Tap.'"

Mitch, I'm with you: It's the first documentary since "American Movie" that ranks a perfect 100 on the Unintentional Comedy Scale. First of all, it's directed by Werner Herzog, who (incredibly) decided to narrate the movie even though he sounds like he's auditioning for a Hans & Frans sketch. Second, the Grizzly Man guy is an absolute maniac and can't even be remotely described. You just have to see him in action. He's surpassed Mark Byars (from "Paradise Lost") and Mark Borchardt for me, and I never thought I would say that. Third, there are so many ridiculously funny moments (like when Grizzly Man claims that he lost out to Woody Harrelson as Coach's replacement on "Cheers," or when he's playing with the bear poop), that you can't even believe it's happening as it's happening. I kept thinking that this was like the "Blair Witch Project," some sort of elaborate hoax by the creators of "Mr. Show." But it's not. And fourth, this is the first movie that I can remember that glorifies someone who's completely insane. I mean, COMPLETELY. Utterly and totally.

(You have to rent this movie -- it's disturbing, hilarious, creepy, haunting, you name it. I won't even spoil the ending for you. Just see it.)

[tryavna]

First of all, it's directed by Werner Herzog, who (incredibly) decided to narrate the movie even though he sounds like he's auditioning for a Hans & Frans sketch.

Apparently, not all viewers are as enchanted by Herzog's mellifluous vocal tones as many of us are.

And fourth, this is the first movie that I can remember that glorifies someone who's completely insane.

Bill Simmons doesn't know much about film history. Has he never seen Triumph of the Will, for instance?

[Andre Jurieu]

Apparently, not all viewers are as enchanted by Herzog's mellifluous vocal tones as many of us are.

Actually I have a few friends who are pretty well-versed in film (degrees, etc.) that don't care for his voice either. I hope Martha can forgive me for hanging out with these people.

Bill Simmons doesn't know much about film history. Has he never seen Triumph of the Will, for instance?

Well, his claim to fame is blogging for ESPN and also writing a book about the Red Soxs finally winning the World Series, so I'm thinking film history isn't his bag. He probably thinks Triumph of the Will is a documentary about Curt Shilling pitching the day after having surgery on his ankle.

[toiletduck!]

Apparently, not all viewers are as enchanted by Herzog's mellifluous vocal tones as many of us are.

Are you kidding? The man's got a freaking accent! Hilll-arious!

Aside from seeing the title plastered all over, I really hadn't been following the public reaction to this. It's somewhat comforting (in an odd sort of way) that this extreme distinction is being made. The battle lines have already been drawn between a close friend and I (she on the "funny, insane" side, me on the "intimate, humanistic" side) and I no longer have to worry about her plunging new depths of being a callous, insensitive twat. Turns out she's just "one of them."

-Toilet Dcuk

[jesus the mexican boi]

Yeah, you know, whenever I'm curious about New German Cinema or the latest documentaries, I always defer to what the cineastes at ESPN have to say. That's some hardball film criticism right there.

[Andre Jurieu]

That's some hardball film criticism right there.

Who claimed it was? I just figured it was amusing that someone at ESPN decided to write about the doc.

[emcflat]

Anyone have dish on "The Wild Blue Yonder?" Someone named Madkinski wrote on imdb:

Saw it last night in Portland with Dourif and Producer in attendance. Excellent, hypnotic film. They said it would be a very slow release in festivals and then more cities, but no, it's not on DVD yet.

I'm guessing no one's seen it here? Know of a screening? Anything?