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John Cope wrote:What I loved so much about it was what I think makes Mann always great. It was serious about the whole "men doing a job" thing, but unlike all the prosaic procedurals which clutter our airwaves the series cast that work and those men in a mythic light. This is still the aspect of Mann that gets the least attention. Everyone quite understandably respects his technical craftsmanship and his attention to detail but those elements are always at the service of a greater goal, a kind of contemporary mythologizing for lack of a better word. He sees what so few other action directors do--the vast potential meaning of the action experience and the latent drama that exists to be tapped into, not simply grafted onto the surface.

As to Vice, I 've been hoping for this film to come about for a number of years and I am very encouraged by the results so far. Farrell and Foxx seem like great choices to me and the desire to update the style is absolutely fitting. The official website posts a summary of the plot which is also encouraging because it sounds as though Mann is going to embrace what was at the heart of the series and consider the implications of one of my favorite themes, being that of identity. The series always toyed with the notion of the cops' undercover identities, but mostly as a way of justifying the excess on display. But the false and superficial identities that these heroic characters had to wear around the clock must have had some psychological effect (and did, as judged by the triumvirate of episodes in which Crockett loses his memory and clings to the false persona, mining all its potential evil). This, of course, plays back into the mythic ideas Mann always traffics in. The iconic moments of the series--the music video type sequences and the fetishized posturing--were a reference to the way modern people choose to mythologize their own lives and moments of personal significance, complete with backing vocals and hazy memory sunsets. Mann was not interested in going the facile route of easily criticizing this human inclination but rather depicting it with utter sincerity as something inherent to the human condition, the desire for greater importance. And yet what happens if a person can get no perspective on what they are doing and the pose is all attitude and loses touch with its empathetic roots? What are the costs to real human relationships which rely on vulnerability not fortress of steel iconic posturing? It sounds as though these are the themes Mann will be exploring more thoroughly in the film. Here's hoping.

che-etienne wrote:I'm not sure if it's that they realize they must stay true to their professionalism. De Niro in "Heat" never really once breaks truly free of his marriage to what he calls 'the discipline' as in the final scene where he spots Pacino in between him and his lover, and as he explained to Pacino in the famous cafe scene, just drops her.

And it is the same with Vincent, who doesn't so much grow as a character or transcend his self-imposed prison but merely finds it shot to pieces. I read in a review of "Heat" once that in that final extreme close up of Pacino we see a "man shot apart, wasted." I think that somes it up. He realizes at the end that as devoted as he was to his profression, to his work, it has brought him little true spiritual fulfillment.

I agree, however, with both of you however about Mann's main thematic concerns and the way he explores them stylistically. I think he is truly one of the best filmmakers these days not to mention one of the most underrated.

Fletch F. Fletch wrote:It's as if Mann is saying, yeah, Pacino's character remained true to his professionalism but at what cost? What else does he have in his life? He's managed to push everyone else away so all he has is his work.

Polybius wrote:Mann respects and admires that professionalism, even if it falls on the wrong side of the law, but it often happens that his characters tend to not be rewarded, at least not appropriately, for their dedication to their craft. There's always some dimwitted, lazy, powerful schmoe who comes along and takes it from him, or tries, through sheer application of force. They're rarely on the same level with our protagonists (I'm thinking of Fictner's prick character in Heat and Prosky's in Thief, in particular), but they can still mess him up.

In that, Mann is (just a little) like Leone. In a lot of Sergio's films, his protagonists and antagonists are a cut or two above more run of the mill people. (Frank and Harmonica are in their own little pas de deux in Once Upon A Time, and even when they're interacting with others, there is a cord that keeps them connected, and seperate from everyone else.)

Mann has just a touch of this, at least to my eyes.

flyonthewall2983 wrote:I just finished watching Heat from beginning to end for the first time in awhile. The quality of everything from the acting down to the action sequences is something that will scant be duplicated in a major Hollywood film again, in my opinion. And no matter what Michael does now or in the future, that one helped cement his legacy as one of the few action/crime directors that give substance to the genre.

Fletch F. Fletch wrote:I think that at least the endings of Manhunter and The Insider offer glimmers of hope. After all, Graham kills the Dollarhyde and is reunited with his family.

Interesting! I never thought of the Leone comparison before.

Film Comment ran a really good article on Mann when this film came out and compared him to Kubrick in the sense that both are filmmakers who produce and direct these mega-productions and are control freaks. It went on to describe Heat as The Killing but on the epic scale of 2001.

exte wrote:Continuing the digression, I was wondering, having seen the last act of Dances of Wolves the other night, why more people on this board don't rave about that film. I guess because Costner isn't auteur material, and since it beat out Goodfellas for Best Picture, people can't forget putting that film in that light.... But I think the film is excellent, a profound achievement. The making of it alone rivals with the best cinderella stories, I think...

exte wrote:I saw this on IMDb just the other day, too, but wasn't going to mention it here because everyone seems to be such a Mann freak. Frankly, I think it's a better film than Heat. It's far more edgier, grittier, darker and meaner than Heat. Heat, for me, is sort of a show off piece featuring De Niro and Pacino in 'fine' performances. Actually, I give the film a lot more credit than that, but as a whole, it never strikes me or overwhelms me like a lot of great epics do. Technically, it gets high marks, achieving a great level of entertainment, but Se7en just reaches another level, I think. That's the best I can explain it. Plus, maybe a lot more IMDb users identify with the work of Fincher than Mann...

Film Comment ran a really good article on Mann when this film came out and compared him to Kubrick in the sense that both are filmmakers who produce and direct these mega-productions and are control freaks.

And Henley has been so good in other Mann outings -- Robbery Homicide Division, Ali and Collateral.