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I finally pulled this out of the ole' kevyip last night and watched it. I have to agree with others on this forum, this is a largely miss Kurosawa for me. It just seemed overly tragic.

Spoiler

Why did the little boy have to die? He told his father, (I'm assuming) to cook the Mackerel, but they eat the raw fish anyway.And then he doesn't take the boy to the doctor.

I don't get it. Is there no hope or redemption for any of these characters? I thought the colors were very nice and balanced,(I watched it up-converted) and the transfer is very solid. But it the end Dodes'ka-den left me with an empty feeling, (something of a new experience for me viewing a Kurosawa film). We waited damn near a decade for Criterion to release this and I am glad to have it in the collection. I'll give it another spin in a month or so and see if I glean something new from it.

Spoiler tags please.

I fixed the post, sorry swo17.

The DVD looks good -- but the film gets the next to last spot on my AK list (only a few early films and Madadayo still left to see).

(My wife kept urging me to just turn the DVD off).

Michael Kerpan wrote:The DVD looks good -- but the film gets the next to last spot on my AK list (only a few early films and Madadayo still left to see).

(My wife kept urging me to just turn the DVD off).

That's funny MK. A friend of mine stopped by whilst I was watching, and watched about 30 minutes with me. (He is a classic film fan also). He told me it was depressing and that he would rather watch me play Call of Duty.

I don't mind depressing movies, in general -- but this struck me as both (too often) silly and _pointlessly_ depressing.

What gets the last spot, Michael?

kaujot wrote:What gets the last spot, Michael?

Ran

Napier wrote:I finally pulled this out of the ole' kevyip last night and watched it. I have to agree with others on this forum, this is a largely miss Kurosawa for me. It just seemed overly tragic.

Spoiler

Why did the little boy have to die? He told his father, (I'm assuming) to cook the Mackerel, but they eat the raw fish anyway.And then he doesn't take the boy to the doctor.

I don't get it. Is there no hope or redemption for any of these characters? I thought the colors were very nice and balanced,(I watched it up-converted) and the transfer is very solid. But it the end Dodes'ka-den left me with an empty feeling, (something of a new experience for me viewing a Kurosawa film). We waited damn near a decade for Criterion to release this and I am glad to have it in the collection. I'll give it another spin in a month or so and see if I glean something new from it.

Spoiler

There was no room in the father's fantasy world for the ugly realities of life; he believed his son would get better, so he saw no reason to take him to the doctor. Just like he saw so reason to cook the mackerel because there was, to him, no need to cook fish. You could argue that the child's death was taking it too far, but I felt it fit the story.

I'm reminded of something slightly similar in Red Beard.

Spoiler

The death of the boy thief was telegraphed the moment he was introduced into the film, two hours after it started. Why bring him in so late in the proceedings otherwise? The way the story dragged out the inevitable was a tad more shameless to me than the death of the boy in Dodes'ka-den. That said, I like Red Beard, so don't think I'm trashing it as a whole.

The parallel little kid character in Red Beard played a totally different role -- in a mostly coherent bigger picture. In Dodesukaden, he's just one more instance of a very repetitive general pattern.

Michael Kerpan wrote:

kaujot wrote:What gets the last spot, Michael?

Ran

Easily.

Michael Kerpan wrote: In Dodesukaden, he's just one more instance of a very repetitive general pattern.

That is true, but this very repetition and the absence of any 'real' narrative might simply reflect the circumstances of those slum dwellers, and not least the father's living of a 'dream' life. I would always agree that Kuro handled similar characters in a much more gripping and (strangely) entertaining way in "The Lower Depths", but I cannot say that the bleakness of "Dodes'ka-den" and its constant feel of irreality (or heightened reality) didn't leave an impression on me. Quite apart from the striking use of colour in the film, which has an almost psychedelic effect.
It's a very unusual film for Kurosawa, and I would assume it's a grower after repeated viewings if you didn't like it the first time.

But be warned: my favourite Kurosawa, after all, is "Ran".

I can pretty much guarantee that repeat viewings of Dodesukaden would simply evoke nausea and/or anger in me. Utterly repellent.

Gorky may have understood "the poor" (giving Kurosawa something to grip on to vicariously in Lower Depths), but Kurosawa himself seems to have had nary a clue.

Give me Imai's And Yet I Live and Uchida's Earth any day.

knives wrote:

Michael Kerpan wrote:

kaujot wrote:What gets the last spot, Michael?

Ran

Easily.

What's wrong with Ran? It's been a few years since I saw it last, but I don't recall it being too bad.

Probably because it's more of a spectacle and less personal than the works of Kurosawa, Red Beard and back. I like Ran, but it is far from my favorite.

For me a big factor to that, there are other things, is the widely uneven camp. If it was just a simple farce or Corman-esqe romp I'd be less annoyed, but Ran tries to and even occasionally succeeds at prestige that makes for an impossible whiplash. Just things like the jester and blind prince are so ridiculous they would be better in a comedy. Even then though I don't find them funny. The score is also one of the worst I have even heard. Completely inappropriate for what unfolds on the screen. I don't want to complain further for a movie that isn't supposed to be discussed in this thread though.
Dodes'ka-den makes me think Kurosawa simply couldn't work in color though. Kagemusha is my last hope for good color.

Jean-Luc Garbo wrote: What's wrong with Ran? It's been a few years since I saw it last, but I don't recall it being too bad.

As napier hinted above, this is not the place to dwell on Ran. I can't recall if I stated my reasons for disliking Ran in the appropriate thread (in its current incarnation, at least).

knives wrote: Dodes'ka-den makes me think Kurosawa simply couldn't work in color though.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this statement knives. I felt the color in Dodes'ka-den was very rich and balanced. Kurosawa obviously had a great knowledge of painting and color schemes. Although the AK art that appears in the film is somewhat childlike,(intentionally I'm sure) it makes for a beautiful frame. Look inside Rokkuchan's house for example. The childish train paintings were really impressive to me. I don't think they would have stood out much in black and white.

I think he uses color very well, better then most, but none of his color films I've seen are any good.

Just things like the jester and blind prince are so ridiculous they would be better in a comedy.

...or in King Lear...

Mr_sausage wrote:

Just things like the jester and blind prince are so ridiculous they would be better in a comedy.

...or in King Lear...

King Lear is my favorite tragedy. I see remarkably little correspondence between Shakespeare's creatures and Kurosawa's.

I agree with MK outside of broad plot similarities they're two different things. Also the Jester was practically not in King Lear. Also prefer how the blinded friend is done there. This is becoming worse then The Last Metro thread.

The Jester is a huge character in Lear.