criterionforum.org

Madadayo wrote:Arg! Someone fix that recurring and disappearing shadow in the film loop where Raina has her head on the steering wheel for a LONG TIME. Hard to believe Criterion didn't catch that.

I find flickering shadow annoying also, but why would you expect Criterion to alter the film?

Because they reconstructed both the Corinth version and Comprehensive version from scratch.

Why not fix a sloppily edited film loop while they were in there and had a chance?

Doing so hardly enters Beatrice Othello country.

Madadayo wrote:Because they reconstructed both the Corinth version and Comprehensive version from scratch.

Why not fix a sloppily edited film loop while they were in there and had a chance?

Doing so hardly enters Beatrice Othello country.

And let's hope they'll someday fix that part in Persona when the film breaks and runs out of the camera, too. Don't you just hate that?

Good idea CSM126, didn't they also 'fix' Weekend in one DVD release?

Ooh, and maybe they can scoop up Planet Terror and fix all those nasty chemical stains and scratches. Must have been a horrible accident with the prints they sent out.

I can't believe they released this movie in black and white: Welles deserves to be seen in color!! Yet another reason why Legend is a better DVD company than Criterion

CSM126 wrote:And let's hope they'll someday fix that part in Persona when the film breaks and runs out of the camera, too. Don't you just hate that?

And that sound at the beginning of The Conversation - an utter disaster. I've never come across distortion like that before.

Yeah! And the Magnificent Ambersons....err....nevermind.

And can someone get rid of that damn repeated scene in Exterminating Ange... oh wait.

So I sat down tonight with the Comprehensive Version (little did I know the film opens on Christmas, so that was a nice coincidence) and, while it's great that Criterion has done right be Welles in providing such an extensive release for this film, I really don't understand the admiration for this film. While I understand the need for suspending disbelief or just going along for the ride with these kinds of films (ie. The Big Sleep completely succeeds despite throwing all hope for a cohesive narrative out the window), the flaws with this film are too upfront and too frequent to be overlooked. Essentially a Citizen Kane redux, Welles film that strives to be about one's identity being consumed by wealth (or the pursuit of it) hinges itself on a plot hook that is frankly ridicuous:

Spoiler

Arkadin hires Van Stratten to find out his secrets and then gets upset when he finds out about them and spends the rest of the film worrying his daughter will find out, when this all could have been avoided by not offering up proposal in the first place. It doesn't make sense that a man who spend 30 years hiding his identity would pay off a stranger to potentially upend what he spent decades successfully hiding.

All that said, the film offers some of Welles most exquisite shots, particularly of Zouk's wintery, hideaway. For any first time Welles fans however, I would definitely point them to most of his other films before getting them to view this. I'm not sure if Welles had the final edit, if I would've liked the film any more given my issues with the actual plot, but it certainly would've helped in achieving the fluidity this version tries to address.

Antoine Doinel wrote:

Spoiler

Arkadin hires Van Stratten to find out his secrets and then gets upset when he finds out about them and spends the rest of the film worrying his daughter will find out, when this all could have been avoided by not offering up proposal in the first place. It doesn't make sense that a man who spend 30 years hiding his identity would pay off a stranger to potentially upend what he spent decades successfully hiding

Arkadin's motive in hiring Van Stratten is not what he initially says it is. Arkadin already knows who he is. Why he actually wants Van Stratten to find all the friends and accomplices in his past is so he can kill them. Then he intends to kill Van Stratten. His motivation, at least in part, is definitely to prevent his daughter from finding out his real history, but he didn't predict that she'd get involved with Van Stratten. Thus his upset about his plan being ruined; the person he was trying to hide things from has found out about them anyway.

How he could not have predicted his daughter would get involved with Van Stratten with all the secretaries following her and their week together prior to the masquerade ball? Also, using a complete stranger to dredge up the past and then hope he won't use it to blackmail you or tell someone in your family seems needlessly convoluted. It would seem that with Arkadin's resources, he could've just hired a professional or used his own army of men to find out the history of these people himself.

Antoine Doinel wrote:How he could not have predicted his daughter would get involved with Van Stratten with all the secretaries following her and their week together prior to the masquerade ball?

Because Arkadin thinks Van Stratten is a complete lowlife, and it never occurs to him that his daughter would be interested in such a person. Look how confident he is that that report he assembles about Van Stratten is going to destroy his daughter's infatuation. Of course, it backfires.

Antoine Doinel wrote:Also, using a complete stranger to dredge up the past and then hope he won't use it to blackmail you or tell someone in your family seems needlessly convoluted. It would seem that with Arkadin's resources, he could've just hired a professional or used his own army of men to find out the history of these people himself.

Maybe, but it seems like it would be a lot simpler to whack some unattached stranger than some guy who works for you. Also, the guy on your staff may talk to others on your staff sooner than an outsider might, which makes it more likely that the outsider would keep things secret longer.

Those are some good points Ishmael, but me for it ultimately doesn't add up. For all the mystery of Arkadin, his daughter never really suspects him of anything (unless I missed it) and the whole operation is brought up because of Arkadin's paranoia. Had he not bothered going down this path at all, everything would've been avoided. Again, he spent 30 years carefully cultivating a new identity only to put it all on the line with some guy he barely knows, who may or may not have the resources to actually find out substantial information about his past.

It boils down to personal preference with this kind of argument. With me, it bothered me too much to really enjoy the film, while for others it's not an issue. Not a big deal really, but of the Welles' films I've seen thus far, this one is by far my least favorite.

Antoine Doinel wrote:Had he not bothered going down this path at all, everything would've been avoided. Again, he spent 30 years carefully cultivating a new identity only to put it all on the line with some guy he barely knows, who may or may not have the resources to actually find out substantial information about his past.

Oh, I completely agree with that, but that's what makes Arkadin's story a tragedy. He's his own worst enemy.

Received this set today, any opinions as to which version I should watch first?

psufootball07 wrote:Received this set today, any opinions as to which version I should watch first?

I would start with the Comprehensive version first, as you can then move on the others and get a better feel for what was altered.

I would agree with starting with the Comprehensive version first.

I really love this collection and packaging that Criterion offered. Definitely one of my favorites.

I agree 100% about the packaging, I knew it was a digi and that it was one of the larger sets ala The Furies, Last Emperor or Vampyr, but I didnt know it was larger than the entire Varda set.

The viewing order depends on your own expectations towards to this problematic film. Since I wanted to see how Welles' original concepts got progressively whittled down, I started with the comprehensive version (knowing full well it is not a director's cut, but is probably the closest to his original intention - who knows how he himself would have edited it down if he had kept control over it), then the Corinth, and finally Confidential Report, which I had seen in French many years ago.

If you want to see a building-upwards effet, you should probably reverse the order. It is a fascinating exercise whichever order you chose and I come back frequently to the 3 versions for comparative viewings; each version throws some explanatory light onto the others. And the 2 commentaries are also very relevant and interesting.

Could Mr. Arkadin have been modeled on Mr. Gulbenkian?

Arkadin - Gulbenkian... hmmmm.

Both were mysterious euro-billionaire businessmen of exotic origin and somewhat unknown (at the time, in the mid-fifties) sources of wealth (Gulbenkian actually got 5% of the gross proceeds from the sale of any oil from Mesopotamia (now Iraq and Kuwait) from 1912 or so until his death in 1955: a commission payable for helping negotiate the oil rights, between the then-overlords of the area, the Ottoman Empire, and Anglo/French petroleum companies. A sweet deal indeed.)

Very, very interesting. Now I have yet another interesting historical figure to research.

Also, perhaps of note, he had a daughter named Rita...Arkadin's was Raina. Not a huge stretch.

Did any one elses copy of this have an error on disc 1? It becomes unplayable during the scene where Arkadin is meeting the Frenchwoman in the restaurant. The "comprehensive" version plays fine, but the "Corinth" version has this error. I'm hoping it was just this one copy and amazon will exchange it for a working one.

Yes, my copy did the same thing. It sticks and then eventually skips forward for a few seconds.

Quite late in seeing the above issue as mine freezes shortly after the 53 minute mark at the meeting of Suzanne Flon as Baroness Nagel. I contacted Mulvaney and he said to send the disc to his attention to:
The Criterion Collection
215 Park Ave. So. 5th Floor
New York, NY 10003