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It's likely the other MOC titles are cheaper to renew?

bdlover wrote:It's a prestige title. Their fifth most prestigious title / most prestigious Asian title in a collection of films that purports to represent the 'Masters of Cinema' from around the globe. Even Hollywood studios still have prestige titles, films like Lincoln which they know are unlikely to make any money but which benefit their brand in other ways.

I can assure you that I've fully grasped this point (indeed, I grasped it over 24 years ago, when I first worked in independent film distribution and exhibition) - but thus far you've completely ignored my key one, which is that this is about renewal, not acquisition.

I refuse to believe that you don't understand the fairly crucial differences (I've explained them often enough, as have others), so I can only conclude that you're now blanking my argument deliberately. Which speaks volumes in itself about your willingness to engage with economic reality.

I also struggle to imagine that the sales are any worse than 95% of the films in the current Masters of Cinema catalogue, which is why I suspect this represents a shift in strategy and that over the next few years we may see the label transform into something more closely resembling Arrow than Criterion. But you're right we're repeating ourselves.

Believe whatever you want to, but it would be nice if it was occasionally backed by a smidgen of hard evidence. Mind you, I'm sure Nick is greatly enjoying his deification.

Orlac wrote:It's likely the other MOC titles are cheaper to renew?

It's neither likely nor unlikely, although Japanese titles certainly don't come cheap as a general rule. A decision to renew rights is almost invariably going to be based on sales figures up to then, as these are now available in a way that they wouldn't have been at the time of acquisition. From a label's perspective, it's far more sensible not to renew if there's no realistic prospect of recouping that additional investment - since the product is already out in the marketplace, the "cultural prestige" argument that bdlover is setting so much store by is in fact largely irrelevant.

Just for the record, the current sales positions of all the MoC blurays on Amazon.co.uk (not counting preorders):

Le Pont Du Nord - 4,658
Touch of Evil - 5,377
Double Indemnity - 5,945
M - 6,108
Metropolis - 6,132
The Tarnished Angels - 6,492
Sunrise - 6,506
Lifeboat - 7,376
Lifeboat (Steel Book) - 7,867
Birth of a Nation - 7,978
Oedipus Rex - 8,040
Accattone - 8,251
Die Nibelungen - 8,666
Silent Running - 8,849
The Insect Woman - 9,137
Tokyo Sonata - 9,265
Mad Detective - 9,343
Tabu - 9,429
The Lost Weekend (Steel Book) - 9,581
Onibaba - 9,791
Harakiri - 9,970
Testament of Dr. Mabuse (Steel Book) - 10,066
The Passion of Joan of Arc (Steel Book) - 10,240
Island of Lost Souls (Steel Book) - 10,360
For All Mankind - 11,320
Vengeance is Mine - 11,386
Repo Man (Steel Book) - 13,350
Cleopatra - 13,513
Fear and Desire - 13,922
The Murderer Lives at 21 - 14,276
Gate of Hell - 15,558
Floating Weeds - 15,595
The Testament of Dr. Mabuse - 16,344
City of Women - 17,239
Island of Lost Souls - 17,838
The Gospel According to Matthew - 18,265
La Planete Sauvage - 18,346
Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter? - 19,098
The Ballad of Narayama - 19,318
Two-Lane Blacktop (Steel Book) - 19,322
Le Silence de la mer - 20,121
City Girl - 21,590
La Signora Senza Camalie - 21,609
Kuroneko - 22,098
Cleopatra (Steel Book) - 23,120
Silent Running (Steel Book) - 23,320
Repo Man - 23,454
Ruggles of Red Gap - 23,965
Sansho Dayu - 24,481
Le Beau Serge - 26,039
Les Cousins - 27,413
The Blue Angel - 27,422
Bakumatsu Taiyo-Den - 27,940
Pigs & Battleships - 29,018
Naked Island - 30,006
Rumble Fish (Steel Book) - 30,094
Rumble Fish - 30,455
Punishment Park - 30,826
The Burmese Harp - 31,074
Double Indemnity (Steel Book) - 31,522
Le Amiche - 32,123
Ugetsu Monogatari - 33,522
Une Femme Mariee - 34,791
Two-Lane Blacktop - 36,237
RoGoPaG - 37,699
The Lost Weekend - 37,771
The Passion of Joan of Arc - 38,878
Coeur Fidele - 42,155
Make Way for Tomorrow - 42,294
Profound Desires of the Gods - 46,512
The World - 49,443
Soul Power - 49,489
La Poison - 54,539

As you can see, Sansho and Ugetsu are not exactly high sellers.

How weird. I'd have thought Passion of Joan of Arc would have been a high seller.

bdlover wrote:It's a prestige title. Their fifth most prestigious title / most prestigious Asian title in a collection of films that purports to represent the 'Masters of Cinema' from around the globe. Even Hollywood studios still have prestige titles, films like Lincoln which they know are unlikely to make any money but which benefit their brand in other ways. I also struggle to imagine that the sales are any worse than 95% of the films in the current Masters of Cinema catalogue, which is why I suspect this represents a shift in strategy and that over the next few years we may see the label transform into something more closely resembling Arrow than Criterion. But you're right we're repeating ourselves.

My guess is that with a (relatively) small scale company like Eureka, sticking with too many unprofitable titles would result with no Masters of Cinema at all, unfortunately. If it was the case that they could afford to have more loss leader titles, I'd imagine they would have renewed it. For the record, I don't entirely agree with the 'MoC has been in decline since Nick left' theory that seems to be underlying this argument. They're still doing lots of good, careful work, even if there was a downturn in the cover art for a while.

Orlac wrote:How weird. I'd have thought Passion of Joan of Arc would have been a high seller.

The Steel Book of Joan of Arc is a high seller. A good portion of the movies Sansho and Ugetsu out sell have been released in two versions splitting the sales per title.

No-one is going to be buying the individual releases of Ugetsu and Sansho right now for obvious reasons. But the boxset is ranked higher than any other film on that list, at 1,319. Perhaps all this panic about dropping the license is serving a purpose

To make money? Well, heavens to Murgatroyd-san!!!!

bdlover wrote:No-one is going to be buying the individual releases of Ugetsu and Sansho right now for obvious reasons.

Why do you say that? Sansho and Ugetsu are really the only big names in the set, so I would imagine there are many people that would gladly just buy the two current releases for half the price.

bdlover wrote:But the boxset is ranked higher than any other film on that list, at 1,319. Perhaps all this panic about dropping the license is serving a purpose

Just about all of the preorders are ranked higher than the other MoC releases because they have just been put up for sale. The rankings for the older releases that I posted show that Sansho and Ugetsu don't have high sales in the long run as say even Le Silence de la mer or City Girl, two films that aren't even really in the same league of cannon the Mizoguchis are in.

bdlover wrote:No-one is going to be buying the individual releases of Ugetsu and Sansho right now for obvious reasons. But the boxset is ranked higher than any other film on that list, at 1,319. Perhaps all this panic about dropping the license is serving a purpose

Of course it is - Eureka have stated outright that they're not going to be renewing the rights and that they'll be expiring soon. Making a public statement like that was clearly intended to boost sales (not least by confirming that there won't be individual releases down the line later), and it seems to be working!

I think that the fact that MoC made this box set at all confirms that they actually do care about these movies and want them to be seen- if this were a question of whether they should risk losing money and put this out or play it safe and just let everything expire, then I would hope they'd put some income on the line to make something great available. Which, uh, they did. Keeping it in print is another matter- if these are important to you, you can buy them now, and you have warning to buy sooner rather than later. If you miss your window, they'll still be around, but you might have to pay more for them. I'd say that Eureka has met their responsibility by putting out the best possible versions of the movies, end of story.

Aren't both points of view correct here to some extent? Sansho and Ugetsu are clearly regarded as classics of world cinema but MoC is going to have trouble keeping them in print if they don't sell. I know that the BFI has recently been supporting cinema distribution of films that are seen as having some commercial potential but as being risky propositions (and that there has been some debate on the quality of films being supported in this way). Maybe diverting some funding into support for companies keeping films like these in print on DVD and BluRay might be a good idea, particularly with a view to future generations who may not otherwise get a chance to see them.

MoC has clearly let films go out of print before, but I think that, if anything grates here, it's compelling people to re-buy BluRays they may have already bought before if they want the new BluRays too. I suspect (but don't know, obviously) that the previous incarnation of MoC may not have thought this was a good public relations move and would have brought out the new BluRays as individual releases as well as making them available in the set.

Aw, come on. I locked this thread for several days in hopes this "argument" would dry up.

Sorry. Just trying to suggest that both sides may not be as far apart as it seems and to wonder whether there might be ways of keeping 'classics' available when they don't work as business propositions. I'm happy for my post to be deleted if it's going to stir up a can of worms rather than a rational discussion.

Sometimes film companies have vested interest in supporting their classical "star properties". For instance Shochiku's prestige has been intertwined with the reputation of its greatest director, Yasujiro Ozu, for almost 80 years -- so it has been willing to promote and preserve his work -- even when doing so does not bring in big (direct) profits. Similarly, Toho has a proprietary interest in the work and reputation of Akira Kurosawa. No DVD/Blu Ray publisher is ever likely to have the same connection with any particular films or directors.

Unfortunately for Mizoguchi, he floated from film company to company during much of his career -- and his last home, Daiei. no longer exists -- and the company that bought Daiei, Kadokawa, has no emotional (or historical) commitment to Mizoguchi;s work. Thus, it would see no benefit to prmoting Mizoguchi's films even if there is only a small return for doing so.

The BFI released Sansho, Ugetsu and Taira Clan on VHS and kept them in print well into the DVD-era, which I suppose could be indicative of higher sales, a lower licence fee or, indeed, such low sales that the initial print run didn't sell out for ages. I wonder whether the films were licensed from Daiei then or whether Kadokawa had already taken over the Daiei library.

I suppose if the rights holders have no real commitment to keeping the films in print and available, there's nothing much anyone can do. In which case, well done to MoC for making the films available on BluRay and trying to boost sales as much as possible at the end of their licence period.

Kadokawa bought Daiei from Tokuma Press (a publishing company that played a major role in Studio Ghibli's early films). Kadokawa also started out as a publisher, but began dabbling with movie making in the 70s. It was noted for making for big pictures, which were promoted with big advertising budgets -- which typically resulted in successful ventures. One suspects that Kadokawa bought Daiei in order to acquire its main movie asset --- no not Mozoguchi but Gamera, the atomic super turtle.

Available for pre-order on Eureka's site:

LTD EDITION of only 2000. Includes eight films, a 344-page book, and a luxurious individually numbered slipcase.

Kenji Mizoguchi looms over the history not only of Japanese cinema -- but of world cinema altogether. These eight films from the last decade of Mizoguchi's career represent a collection of eight of his greatest works, which is to say, eight of the greatest films ever made.

Contains the following films: Sansho Dayu, Ugetsu Monogatari, Chikamatsu Monogatari, Oyu Sama, Yokihi, Gion Bayashi, Uwasa no Onna, and Akasen Chitai

http://www.eurekavideo.co.uk/offers/new.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The book has ballooned from 200 pages to 344. Perhaps there will be some new content.

That's a first - my Amazon UK preorder is actually cheaper at about £35 with shipping. I usually end up canceling and switching to the Eureka offers.

But every copy will be individually numbered, and orders direct from Eureka are guaranteed to have a lower number. Um, in case that means anything to you.

Per Amazon, this has been delayed by one week.

One of the pleasures of ordering direct from Eureka is not knowing when an order will drop through your letterbox. There's no email notification, and you may have it up to two weeks before release date. It's like Santa has been.

Eureka Entertainment wrote:We're getting to the bottom of our allocation of the Mizoguchi sets, if you want an early number pre-order today!

Masters of Cinema wrote:That's right: our LATE MIZOGUCHI Blu-ray boxsets which are numbered to 2000, are already approaching full sell-out even in pre-orders.

The second tweet may be an over exaggeration on Craig's part, considering the first, but I wouldn't risk it!