criterionforum.org

Spoiler

A bittersweet finale would have been appropriate, rather than the blaze of glory that played to only the basest of desires for a shootout. I'll accept that the intertwined german legend insisted on heroics, but Django as a character couldn't deliver that. When I compare this to the relatively 'deep' family drama and complex maternal instinct that plays out in Kill Bill, it seems like a major step down

Spoiler

The dude is literally on a journey to rescue his wife from the bondage of slavery. At one point, he sticks with the Doctor because he is promised he can find Broomhilda. If the Doctor had just said forget about Broomhilda, join me making money killing people, Django might've left the partnership just to find Broomhilda.

Drucker wrote:

Spoiler

A bittersweet finale would have been appropriate, rather than the blaze of glory that played to only the basest of desires for a shootout. I'll accept that the intertwined german legend insisted on heroics, but Django as a character couldn't deliver that. When I compare this to the relatively 'deep' family drama and complex maternal instinct that plays out in Kill Bill, it seems like a major step down

Spoiler

The dude is literally on a journey to rescue his wife from the bondage of slavery. At one point, he sticks with the Doctor because he is promised he can find Broomhilda. If the Doctor had just said forget about Broomhilda, join me making money killing people, Django might've left the partnership just to find Broomhilda.

Spoiler

But instead of splitting with her immediately, after years of separation, he makes her wait outside while he returns to the mansion to make sure that everybody sees the error of their ways.

Spoiler

As far as the bounty hunter thing goes, the fact that their day jobs are an odd combination of moral and hardcore murderer is, if anything, elegant preparation for the shootout at the end- particularly as Django has no hesitation about shooting Candie's sister, or killing any number of unarmed men. What he's doing is broadly ethical, but it's certainly a form of ethics that requires a certain comfort with killing and willingness to compromise.

I still think a better ending would have been a massive uprising of all Candie's slaves- albeit with Django at the head, as he obviously needs to be the heroic crux of the movie- but I think the one we get is just fine.

Zot! wrote:

Spoiler

But instead of splitting with her immediately, after years of separation, he makes her wait outside while he returns to the mansion to make sure that everybody sees the error of their ways.

Spoiler

So he can kill her torturers, avenge Schultz and D'Artagnan, and, you know, not have a estate load of fucking people on his back as soon as he leaves? Yeah, pretty crazy.

matrixschmatrix wrote:

Spoiler

So he can kill her torturers, avenge Schultz and D'Artagnan, and, you know, not have a estate load of fucking people on his back as soon as he leaves? Yeah, pretty crazy.

Spoiler

The first two reasons, I argued above, seem unmotivated to me, the last reason seems unrealistic, as he could have been an hour away already, and in the eyes of the law he MUST now be the most wanted man in the entire country anyways.

mfunk wrote:From the time that Dr. Schultz tells Django about the legend of Siegfried and Broomhilda, one should steel himself for Django's heroic moment in the sun, realism be damned.

Sigfried's love is Brünnhilde. This is Broomhilda.

I love the Sigfried story. I am definitely going to see the movie this week now.

Zot! wrote:

matrixschmatrix wrote:

Spoiler

So he can kill her torturers, avenge Schultz and D'Artagnan, and, you know, not have a estate load of fucking people on his back as soon as he leaves? Yeah, pretty crazy.

Spoiler

The first two reasons, I argued above, seem unmotivated to me, the last reason seems unrealistic, as he could have been an hour away already, and in the eyes of the law he MUST now be the most wanted man in the entire country anyways.

Spoiler

Your objection is that a flawed person becomes the righteous will of a subjugated people, which seems unmotivated. Personal vengeance- and Django absolutely does take D'Artagnan's death personally, with a line to that effect at one point- is not the same thing. Though I also think it's clear that Django is willing and happy to take universal vengeance against the institution of slavery, which seems perfectly fitting for his character- in what way does his time as a bounty hunter ("killing white folks") conflict with that?

Mr Sausage wrote:

mfunk wrote:From the time that Dr. Schultz tells Django about the legend of Siegfried and Broomhilda, one should steel himself for Django's heroic moment in the sun, realism be damned.

Sigfried's love is Brünnhilde. This is Broomhilda.

I love the Sigfried story. I am definitely going to see the movie this week now.

Well, the female lead of the movie is named 'Broomhilda', but Schultz consistently pronounces it 'Brünnhilde', and there's a bit of confusion on that front (though obviously it's just that the former is meant to be a corruption of the latter).

I hadn't noticed that bit of misunderstanding between the characters - perhaps deliberate on Schultz' part, perhaps not (same can be said for Tarantino). Not being familiar with that legend, I just took it at face value and assumed that Schultz was just pronouncing Broomhilda's name with the proper German dialect.

Hmm, that's interesting. Who knows what Tarantino intended with that.

Mfunk: you should really check out Lang's Die Nibelungen some time. Fantastic movie, and it'll give you a good rundown of the Sigfried story.

matrixschmatrix wrote:

Spoiler

So he can kill her torturers, avenge Schultz and D'Artagnan, and, you know, not have a estate load of fucking people on his back as soon as he leaves? Yeah, pretty crazy.

Spoiler

There's also runaway slave laws to consider. With the witnesses dead who is there to contest Hilde's freedom?

Mr Sausage wrote:Hmm, that's interesting. Who knows what Tarantino intended with that.

Mfunk: you should really check out Lang's Die Nibelungen some time. Fantastic movie, and it'll give you a good rundown of the Sigfried story.

Will do, always appreciate a reason to buy a new MoC. As for the name - perhaps it was a southern bastardization of the spelling over time. But the name is on the screen (in a slave auction record book) and it's spelled Broomhilda.

Could someone help me with a music question from the film?

Spoiler

What recording of Richie Havens' Freedom plays over Django surrendering to Stephen, Billy Crash, et. al after the bloody shootout post-Candie assassination? It's really a strikingly great recording, and it's not on the soundtrack one way or the other. I'd love to find it - I've found a couple different recordings of the song, but they're not the same.

It's lifted directly from the WOODSTOCK film, natch.

Is it, really? I'm familiar with that recording but found the one in the film to be a lot cleaner-sounding. Maybe a remaster, I suppose - but it's good to know that I don't have to go hunting for it. Thanks!

mfunk9786 wrote:

Mr Sausage wrote:Hmm, that's interesting. Who knows what Tarantino intended with that.

Mfunk: you should really check out Lang's Die Nibelungen some time. Fantastic movie, and it'll give you a good rundown of the Sigfried story.

Will do, always appreciate a reason to buy a new MoC. As for the name - perhaps it was a southern bastardization of the spelling over time. But the name is on the screen (in a slave auction record book) and it's spelled Broomhilda.

I assume it's simply Tarantino making reference to the comic strip, and such Americanization is reasonably expected anyways. Native European speakers typically would never use the Americanization when refering to persons or places, and Schultz's 'correct' pronunciation is also expected.

matrixschmatrix wrote:

Spoiler

Your objection is that a flawed person becomes the righteous will of a subjugated people, which seems unmotivated. Personal vengeance- and Django absolutely does take D'Artagnan's death personally, with a line to that effect at one point- is not the same thing. Though I also think it's clear that Django is willing and happy to take universal vengeance against the institution of slavery, which seems perfectly fitting for his character- in what way does his time as a bounty hunter ("killing white folks") conflict with that?

Spoiler

Simply that it held no meaning. Thematically, I think it was meant to be a symbolic gesture, a heroic liberation, a call to arms or whatever. Instead, at the very best it seemed like overzealous housekeeping, and at worst excessive nonsense. It doesn't help that Django is a cipher and Broomhilda is window-dressing.

mfunk9786 wrote:Is it, really? I'm familiar with that recording but found the one in the film to be a lot cleaner-sounding. Maybe a remaster, I suppose - but it's good to know that I don't have to go hunting for it. Thanks!

mfunk, I think its a new recording by Anthony Hamilton featuring Elayna Boynton.

Mr Sausage wrote:Mfunk: you should really check out Lang's Die Nibelungen some time. Fantastic movie, and it'll give you a good rundown of the Sigfried story.

I'm far from an expert on this, but the Nibelung saga and associated myths go back at least to Old Norse sources. Lang's film is interesting because it derives from the medieval German epic poem, the Nibelungenlied, which is set in a medieval court.

Mfunk, if you want to know more about the underlying story, I also recommend becoming at least familiar with the general plot of Wagner's opera cycle Der Ring des Nibelungen, since it handles the material quite differently and is such a common point of reference in 19th and 20th century culture, probably for Tarantino as well. If you are curious to watch the operas--they are brilliant!--I recommend checking out Robert Lepage's recent production for the Metropolitan Opera--it is now available on Blu-ray, as well as DVD and is a tremendously exciting example of innovative stagecraft. Some of the reviewers complained about creaking machinery during the live productions, but it's not apparent in the live video productions, and the video productions themselves are unusually well-directed.

Other strong productions on video:

1991-1992 Bayreuth production, conducted by Daniel Barenboim and directed by Harry Kupfer. One of the first analog high definition videos of an opera, it is now available on Blu-ray. I dislike the clear plastic helmets in Die Walküre, but vocally and dramatically this is one of the absolute best productions on video.

1976 Bayreuth production, conducted by Pierre Boulez and directed by Patrice Chereau and taped for broadcast a few years later. Controversial at the time for its 19th-century industrial Europe setting, though it is still one of the strongest overall productions and a modern classic in opera productions. Available on DVD only.

1986 Metropolitan Opera production, conducted by James Levine and directed by Otto Schenk. Available on DVD. Very traditional staging, so maybe good for newcomers but a bit stodgy and lacking in dramatic tension compared to the productions above. In particular, the first act of Die Walküre drags due to the lack of romantic chemistry between Jessye Norman and Gary Lakes. Compare this to the later Robert Lepage/James Levine production of the same opera, where you feel the heat between Siegmund and Sieglinde.

jsteffe wrote:I'm far from an expert on this, but the Nibelung saga and associated myths go back at least to Old Norse sources. Lang's film is interesting because it derives from the medieval German epic poem, the Nibelungenlied, which is set in a medieval court.

You're very right. The Sigfried story (Sigurd in old Norse) was a common germanic legend. Our earliest textual sources come from Iceland, where traditional pagan stories from the mainland were preserved after the incursion of Christianity, likely because immigrant colonies tend to hold on to their traditions more fervently. I think the actual oldest text of the Sigurd cycle comes from The Poetic Edda, an anonymous collection of legends and stories about the gods and various heroes written in Old Norse, but all reflecting an even older tradition.

Interestingly, contemporaneous with the writing of the Middle High German Nibelungenlied was the writing of the Old Norse Volsunga Saga in Iceland, which is the fullest account of the Sigurd story. Both it and the Nibelungenlied reflect a common, older Germanic heritage, and while both feature some of the same story beats, they are radically different narratives (I prefer the Norse version myself, but that's just me). It's also interesting that while the Middle High German version is in verse, the Old Norse version is in prose (indeed the Scandanavian countries seem to have invented their own unique form of literature, the prose saga). Also, while the old Norse version keeps an older setting, the Nibelungenlied adopts a more contemporary mediaeval setting.

Wagner's operas are indeed amazing, and he heavily alters the various stories to create his own thing (which, if you're Bernard Shaw, is an allegory for socialism). Lang's version is closer to the Nibelungenlied than it is to any other version, although it includes Sigfried's fight with Fafnir, which is only alluded to in that text.

My own favourite version of the Sigurd/Sigfried cycle is William Morris' long narrative poem, Sigurd the Volsung, which adds layers of complexity and psychology to the somewhat more naive story of the older versions.

Warren D wrote:

mfunk9786 wrote:Is it, really? I'm familiar with that recording but found the one in the film to be a lot cleaner-sounding. Maybe a remaster, I suppose - but it's good to know that I don't have to go hunting for it. Thanks!

mfunk, I think its a new recording by Anthony Hamilton featuring Elayna Boynton.

That's actually the song that plays earlier in the film during the Django/Broomhilda flashback (with the "workin' for freeeee" chorus).

Mr Sausage wrote:

jsteffe wrote:I'm far from an expert on this, but the Nibelung saga and associated myths go back at least to Old Norse sources. Lang's film is interesting because it derives from the medieval German epic poem, the Nibelungenlied, which is set in a medieval court.

You're very right. The Sigfried story (Sigurd in old Norse) was a common germanic legend. Our earliest textual sources come from Iceland, where traditional pagan stories from the mainland were preserved after the incursion of Christianity, likely because immigrant colonies tend to hold on to their traditions more fervently. I think the actual oldest text of the Sigurd cycle comes from The Poetic Edda, an anonymous collection of legends and stories about the gods and various heroes written in Old Norse, but all reflecting an even older tradition.

Interestingly, contemporaneous with the writing of the Middle High German Nibelungenlied was the writing of the Old Norse Volsunga Saga in Iceland, which is the fullest account of the Sigurd story. Both it and the Nibelungenlied reflect a common, older Germanic heritage, and while both feature some of the same story beats, they are radically different narratives (I prefer the Norse version myself, but that's just me). It's also interesting that while the Middle High German version is in verse, the Old Norse version is in prose (indeed the Scandanavian countries seem to have invented their own unique form of literature, the prose saga). Also, while the old Norse version keeps an older setting, the Nibelungenlied adopts a more contemporary mediaeval setting.

Wagner's operas are indeed amazing, and he heavily alters the various stories to create his own thing (which, if you're Bernard Shaw, is an allegory for socialism). Lang's version is closer to the Nibelungenlied than it is to any other version, although it includes Sigfried's fight with Fafnir, which is only alluded to in that text.

My own favourite version of the Sigurd/Sigfried cycle is William Morris' long narrative poem, Sigurd the Volsung, which adds layers of complexity and psychology to the somewhat more naive story of the older versions.

Thanks, this creates a much fuller picture for me! I've heard of (but not read) the Poetic Edda, but the William Morris poem is entirely new to me. Apparently it's freely available as a free e-text, since it dates to 1870.

jsteffe wrote:Thanks, this creates a much fuller picture for me! I've heard of (but not read) the Poetic Edda, but the William Morris poem is entirely new to me. Apparently it's freely available as a free e-text, since it dates to 1870.

Make sure it's actually his retelling of the story and not his earlier English translation of the Volsunga saga.

EDIT: checking some dates, if it's 1870 you're getting Morris' translation (with Eirikr Magnusson) of the Volsunga Saga. His actual poem, Sigurd the Volsung, is from 1876.

Mr Sausage wrote: Make sure it's actually his retelling of the story and not his earlier English translation of the Volsunga saga.

EDIT: checking some dates, if it's 1870 you're getting Morris' translation (with Eirikr Magnusson) of the Volsunga Saga. His actual poem, Sigurd the Volsung, is from 1876.

I found what you mean, the 1876 poem at the Morris Online Edition website, thanks!

For anyone wanting to dig into the spaghetti western films that inspired Tarantino, here are his top 20 favorites:

01. THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY, Sergio Leone (1966)
02. FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, Sergio Leone (1965)
03. DJANGO, Sergio Corbucci (1966)
04. THE MERCENARY, Sergio Corbucci (1968)
05. ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, Sergio Leone (1968)
06. A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS, Sergio Leone (1964)
07. DAY OF ANGER, Tonino Valerii (1967)
08. DEATH RIDES A HORSE, Giulio Petroni (1967)
09. NAVAJO JOE, Sergio Corbucci (1966)
10. THE RETURN OF RINGO, Duccio Tessari (1965)
11. THE BIG GUNDOWN, Sergio Sollima (1966)
12. A PISTOL FOR RINGO, Duccio Tessari (1965)
13. THE DIRTY OUTLAWS, Franco Rossetti (1967)
14. THE GREAT SILENCE, Sergio Corbucci (1968)
15. THE GRAND DUEL, Giancarlo Santi (1972)
16. SHOOT THE LIVING, PRAY FOR THE DEAD, Giuseppe Vari (1971)
17. TEPEPA, Giulio Petroni (1968)
18. THE UGLY ONES, Eugenio Martin (1966)
19. VIVA DJANGO!, Ferdinando Baldi (1967)
20. MACHINE GUN KILLERS, Paolo Bianchini (1968)

The runners up in not so strict order: Hellbenders; If you meet Sartana, Pray for your Death; God forgives, I don't; Companeros; Four of the Apocalypse; Ace High; Boot Hill; Duck, You Sucker; Minnesota Clay; Arizona Colt; Ringo and his Golden Pistol; Adios Gringo; and to quote Quentin "all the Calvin Jackson Padget films with Giuliano Gemma" (One Silver Dollar; Fort Yuma Gold; Wanted); The Trinity movies (They Call Me Trinity; Trinity Is Still My Name); This man can't die; The Deserter; Five Man Army; Chino; Requiescant; Red Sun.

I wonder if he's seen A Bullet for the General because that movie rules.

Wow, that's straight up damning Duck, You Sucker! with faint praise, to put it among the also-rans.

Navajo Joe at #9? It's a pretty middling, forgettable western, especially considering the company it's keeping.