Brokeback Mountain (Ang Lee, 2005)

[ben d banana]

If there's "striving for the American Dream," then what's Jack doing in Mexico? And he does this -- mind you -- at the height of the 70's. Why doesn't he go to San Francisco to get laid?

Because the filmmakers and their intended audience (fag-hags, fangurls, and blinkered breeders) have no interest in San Francisco, or anything else connected to the rise of the gay rights movement in this country.

Or because they were small town country boys with little use for the big city.

Really, I actually agree with you that this is a woman's weepie (a good one, not a great one), not a film with any insight into real queer, or cowboy, culture. It's just that liking it does not make one an idiot nor blind to reality. How many films do you enjoy where the non-white natives/foreigners are played by whites or actors of an otherwise inexact race? Do you hold an inherent and unbending grudge against these films? It's a universal doomed romance tale, and this time instead of class, race, religion, age, etc, the characters are queer. It is the hot topic to be capitalized on. This is what seemed to be David Hare's initial objection, and I can certainly understand why. Is it a cynical marketing ploy? Is it an attempt to open up a dialogue in an increasingly conservative (American) society? Is it an attempt at quality filmmaking? Depending on who you ask on the production or viewing stage it could be any or all.

I've spent more vacation time in San Francisco than any other city. No mention of The Times of Harvey Milk, or even Tales of the City?

[HerrSchreck]

Ask yourself this question: how would the public react to a movie about two inner city black girls that was written by Ben Stein and acted by Paris Hilton and Gwyneth Paltrow....) ?

Wasn't that that really really long film when Elvis Presley & Pat Boone played Robert Johnson & Little Richard? I think it was called "Dammit If The Dadburn'd Little White Girl Insists On Dancing..."

[Michael]

I think it has more to do with making a social statement, a very similar one to, say, Romeo and Juliet. If Brokeback had had a fairytale ending with the two heros getting married, starting their own ranch, the bigoted cowboys seeing the error of their ways and begrudgingly wishing them well, maybe drunkenly cheering them on at the wedding--or even if they ran off to "San Francisco"--wouldn't D. Scott or David Ehrenstein just as readily be complaining that it skirts serious gay issues? The movie wants these boys to get it together but it is a star-crossed lovers story.

How so wrong. One of my all time favorites is Come Undone. The relationship of Mathieu and Cedric falls apart, leaving Mathieu in suicidal depression. It's HOW the film portrays the gay characters.

[David Ehrenstein]

How many films do you enjoy where the non-white natives/foreigners are played by whites or actors of an otherwise inexact race?

Ford' Cheyenne Autumn is great camp. Native Americans played by Dolores del Rio, Ricardo Montalban, and Sal Mineo.

Do you hold an inherent and unbending grudge against these films?

Well DUH!

It's a universal doomed romance tale, and this time instead of class, race, religion, age, etc, the characters are queer.

As I have said several times already, there is no zero sum formula by which sexual orientation can be subsituted for race or ethnicity or religion or anything else. There is a whole history involved here. One that I very much doubt you're aware of and that the film pointedly ignores.

Is it a cynical marketing ploy? Is it an attempt to open up a dialogue in an increasingly conservative (American) society? Is it an attempt at quality filmmaking? Depending on who you ask on the production or viewing stage it could be any or all.

Nah, just the first.

I've spent more vacation time in San Francisco than any other city. No mention of The Times of Harvey Milk, or even Tales of the City?

By whom?

The Mayor of Castro Street is finally coming to the big screen, BTW. Bryan Singer will direct.

[ben d banana]

Michael, most cultures are as much about what they are as they are reactions to what they are not. Canada: America. Gay: Straight. It probably wasn't the most eloquent argument, but you, as an American, haven't experienced being a "second class" North American.

If it sounds like I even remotely deny your sincerity, I apologize.

[ben d banana]

As I have said several times already, there is no zero sum formula by which sexual orientation can be subsituted for race or ethnicity or religion or anything else. There is a whole history involved here. One that I very much doubt you're aware of and that the film pointedly ignores.

Do you mean a whole history of film, reality, or both? I believe I agreed with you that the film is hardly full of insight into queer culture. Of course, I haven't immersed myself in queer culture, and of course you've had straight, white culture force fed you as the norm. There are plenty of queer films/filmmakers I enjoy, but it's not as though I search them out due to their queer quotient.

Are you denying whole histories of race, religion, etc? Isn't part of your problem with the film that it's too universal and not queer enough? This film could just as easily have been about a Protestant and Catholic in Northern Ireland.

[The Invunche]

Ben, there are no cowboys in Northern Ireland.

[ben d banana]

Invunched!

[David Ehrenstein]

Do you mean a whole history of film, reality, or both?

Both

I believe I agreed with you that the film is hardly full of insight into queer culture. Of course, I haven't immersed myself in queer culture, and of course you've had straight, white culture force fed you as the norm.

At last you're starting to catch on!

There are plenty of queer films/filmmakers I enjoy, but it's not as though I search them out due to their queer quotient.

And it's not like I look at the rest of the cinema for a queerness that I'm not going to find, is it?

[David Ehrenstein]

McDonald's Brokeback Mountain Happy Meal

[ben d banana]

I believe I agreed with you that the film is hardly full of insight into queer culture. Of course, I haven't immersed myself in queer culture, and of course you've had straight, white culture force fed you as the norm.

At last you're starting to catch on!

Or you're paying attention to posts beyond what you care to squabble over.

There are plenty of queer films/filmmakers I enjoy, but it's not as though I search them out due to their queer quotient.

And it's not like I look at the rest of the cinema for a queerness that I'm not going to find, is it?

I think you've misunderstood my point (I don't watch and enjoy them because they're queer, rather because I find them to be good), but some would say you do look for queerness that isn't there in places like Bresson, although I happen to agree with you and David Hare to a large degree.

[Michael]

As I have said several times already, there is no zero sum formula by which sexual orientation can be subsituted for race or ethnicity or religion or anything else. There is a whole history involved here. One that I very much doubt you're aware of and that the film pointedly ignores.

David E, can you please elaborate on that? I read it over again and again, trying to get the gist of what you mean and I'm still not certain.

[David Ehrenstein]

David hare's citation of Crossfire is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, Michael. Homophobia and anti-semitism are not the same thing -- though the movie would like to pretend that one can be substituted for the other. In the movie the sodliers murder the man who brought them drinsk and talked them up because he's a Jew. In Richard Brooks' book The Brick Foxhole, the man bught them drinks and talked them up because he was gay -- and that's why they murdered him.

As you may know in addition to being gay, I'm black. The experience of suffering racial prejudice is in no way shape or form comparable to what I've had to deal with because I'm gay.

[GringoTex]

Ford' Cheyenne Autumn is great camp. Native Americans played by Dolores del Rio, Ricardo Montalban, and Sal Mineo.

In addition, much of the Navajo dialogue that can be heard in the film by the real Indian extras is full of cursing and jokes about white people.

[David Ehrenstein]

But more importantly don't you feel so much more strongly about the gay plot than the anti semitic Code induced transparency with Bob Young's noble speech?

Not at all. You either make a film about a homophobic murder or you don't. Crossfire is a film about anti-semitism burying what might have been a film about a homophobicmurder in the process.

It's chicken shit -- like its maker.

[Napoleon]

...but some would say you do look for queerness that isn't there in places like Bresson...

Oh God. Not again.

[marty]

This is the longest, whining post I have ever read. Full of endless bitchiness and inane arguments about the acceptance of homosexuality in mainstream cinema. It's called mainstream cinema, not queer cinema. I am also pissed off at the lack of heterosexuals in Queer As Folk and The L Word as it is not representative of modern society! See, how it sounds!

[Michael]

Oh please not you again. Now who's really whining?

Please do tell me that you're 8 years old because then I'll be able to forgive you.

[GringoTex]

But more importantly don't you feel so much more strongly about the gay plot than the anti semitic Code induced transparency with Bob Young's noble speech?

Not at all. You either make a film about a homophobic murder or you don't. Crossfire is a film about anti-semitism burying what might have been a film about a homophobicmurder in the process.

It's chicken shit -- like its maker.

I always took it as a film about both. Before I ever knew the film's backstory, it seemed clear to me that the victim is both a Jew and gay, and that Robert Ryan's character is both an anti-Semite and homophobic, but that he used anti-Semitism as a cover for his real motivation for murder.

[Andre Jurieu]

Oh please not you again. Now who's really whining?

Please do tell me that you're 8 years old because then I would be able to forgive you.

Well, marty did provide us this pearl of wisdom...

All the ridiculous criticism of the film mostly stems from Woody's past indiscretions. Do we have to hear another female critic lambasting Woody Allen? Get a life, bitch!

Don't know if he's 8 years old or not, but I guess that's just how marty rolls.

[David Ehrenstein]

Meanwhile --

Didn't you just KNOW this was going to happen?

http://www.fleshbot.com/sex/gay/dvd-bar ... 149416.php

[Steven H]

Meanwhile --

Didn't you just KNOW this was going to happen?

http://www.fleshbot.com/sex/gay/dvd-bar ... 149416.php

"Bareback Mountain"? Wouldn't "Backdoor Mountin'" be so much better?

[toiletduck!]

Um, hello? Sequel?

-Toilet Dcuk

[Doctor Sunshine]

How so wrong. One of my all time favorites is Come Undone. The relationship of Mathieu and Cedric falls apart, leaving Mathieu in suicidal depression. It's HOW the film portrays the gay characters.

My point stands. D. Scott says the unhappy ending is conspiratorial and I disagree. You're evading the point by now saying the portrayals are the culprit.

[Michael]

What I was saying that both films BBM and Come Undone have a gay relationship that dissolves which is not the REAL issue with me. That's the fact of life, that happens to everyone. However, it's HOW gay characters are being portrayed. That's the issue I'm talking about. As a gay man, I find the portrayal of the gay characters in Come Undone so strikingly authentic, despite the fact that the actors who played them are straight in real life. The film has an incredible range of emotions coming from those two guys... so real that I forgot that I was watching a film.

However! Come Undone does end with some hope as Mathieu faces the next stage of his life with more wisdom and strength, unlike Ennis. Ennis is stuck alone in an empty trailer with stuff representing his love for Jack (shirts, postcards) remain hidden in the closet, of all places. Blehhh.