criterionforum.org

starmanof51 wrote:

Michael Kerpan wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:I say we just put a moratorium on Japanese films in general. We get it, swords, suicide, cuddly women, we get it.

Tongue in cheek, I hope.

Many a truth is said in jest.

Not a fool-proof maxim by any means.

No truth at all in this particular jest (if it is a jest).

Macintosh wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:Yes, there will be a Kurosawa box.

If this is true, I find it completely unnecessary. There is already enough Kurosawa on DVD at this point.

Yes, why on earth would a home video company with a distinct bias toward auteurist aesthetics be interested in releasing the entire filmography of one of the biggest money-making directors in their catalogue? And why on earth would somebody who likes a particular director's style ever be interested in seeing every film that director made?

An early Kurosawa box would likely contain...

Horse (with Kajiro Yamamoto)
One Wonderful Sunday
The Most Beautiful
No Regrets for Our Youth
Scandal

...and I would buy that box almost exclusively to see Horse.

Although it's obviously not my first choice for a Japanese Eclipse set, a Kurosawa set mopping up the early titles is a far more promising prospect for me than diminishing-returns drip-feeding of the same titles over several years. They're not going to stop flogging this particular cash cow until it's well and truly dead, and who can blame them? So it's better to get the more marginal titles released as a no-frills package in one hit. Same with Bergman - that may have been a rather tame choice for the inaugural Eclipse set, but it's a vastly more attractive package than gradual releases of the individual titles overinflated with time-marking 'appreciations' or Cowie commentaries simply to justify the Criterion retail price.

Even though I was not remotely interested in it, I want there to be more Eclipse releases like the Carlos Saura set. Obscure (comparatively to Kurosawa or Bergman) films getting released for the smallest of niche markets. This all boils down to the "Criterion Won't Release What I Want" thread again but still, where's our French New Wave set? Where are the daring releases, because Early Kurosawa is playing it safe.

domino harvey wrote:Even though I was not remotely interested in it, I want there to be more Eclipse releases like the Carlos Saura set. Obscure (comparatively to Kurosawa or Bergman) films getting released for the smallest of niche markets. This all boils down to the "Criterion Won't Release What I Want" thread again but still, where's our French New Wave set? Where are the daring releases, because Early Kurosawa is playing it safe.

Maybe because the Carlos Saura set is going to get diminishing returns, that will prevent them from taking too many chances in the future. We might expect them to cover all unreleased films from known auteurs rather than put out the next Philippe Garell set (my dream boxset)

Early Kurosawa would be playing it safe, especially considering a few of these films are getting remastered by TOHO (I hope.) But I would take it gladly nonetheless, and a proper early Kurosawa set would probably be the Sugata Sanshiro films, Those Who Tread on the Tiger's Tail, One Wonderful Sunday, and No Regrets for Our Youth, and they would probably make it not so much on their lack of appeal for the main Criterion level, but the visual quality of their transfers (which can't be in the best shape.)

As for the Yamamoto, now there's a figure in need of an Eclipse set. Horse (1941) and War at Sea From Hawaii to Malay (1942, which came in first in that year's Kinema Jumpo poll) are very good films, and I've wanted to see Elegy (1950) for some time as well (quite a cast, that one).

Steven H wrote:As for the Yamamoto, now there's a figure in need of an Eclipse set. Horse (1941) and War at Sea From Hawaii to Malay (1942, which came in first in that year's Kinema Jumpo poll) are very good films, and I've wanted to see Elegy (1950) for some time as well (quite a cast, that one).

And 'Battle Troop'!

I would love to see a Japanese propaganda film set. Including one or two of Kurosawa's films might help make it commercially viable, but I would really like to see them focus on Yamamoto, Tasaka ('Mud and Soldiers', 'Five Scouts') or Kamei Fumio ('Fighting Soldiers').

domino harvey wrote:Even though I was not remotely interested in it, I want there to be more Eclipse releases like the Carlos Saura set. Obscure (comparatively to Kurosawa or Bergman) films getting released for the smallest of niche markets.

As much as I'd love to see One Wonderful Sunday... Good point.

Although saying that they could go totally crazy and release some boxset of extended and uncut MTV celebrity docu-dramas with a Paris Hilton commentary...

domino harvey wrote:Even though I was not remotely interested in it, I want there to be more Eclipse releases like the Carlos Saura set. Obscure (comparatively to Kurosawa or Bergman) films getting released for the smallest of niche markets. This all boils down to the "Criterion Won't Release What I Want" thread again but still, where's our French New Wave set? Where are the daring releases, because Early Kurosawa is playing it safe.

I sympathize, but I think the ratio of 'daring' to 'safe' Eclipse releases will be similar to that of the Criterion line. Currently it's one in six (Yay Bernard!), and I wouldn't count the Saura or New Wave collections as particularly daring - Saura may not be a household name on this forum, but the films were respectable international successes (more than could be said for the films in the Bergman box) and are eminently marketable, and any other 'New Wave' collection would be more daring than a French one. If we get both Imamura and Gremillon next year (I didn't dream the latter, did I?) that will probably be our quota for 'daring', but I'd be more than happy with those.

Anyway, it's all relative - even the Bergman and Kurosawa sets would be hopelessly esoteric to 99.9% of the market.

the dancing kid wrote:And 'Battle Troop'!

I would love to see a Japanese propaganda film set. Including one or two of Kurosawa's films might help make it commercially viable, but I would really like to see them focus on Yamamoto, Tasaka ('Mud and Soldiers', 'Five Scouts') or Kamei Fumio ('Fighting Soldiers').

That's a really interesting idea (and fits right in with the discussion going on in Burns' The War thread). I was just thinking tonight about wanting to see some Tasaka, particularly Five Scouts. Everything I've read about this makes it sound very interesting.

Of course you could also include some Abe and maybe Taguchi, but the crown on the top of Japanese propaganda films has to be Kinoshita's Army, which has one of the best closing scenes in any film of the decade.

What A Disgrace wrote:An early Kurosawa box would likely contain...

Horse (with Kajiro Yamamoto)
One Wonderful Sunday
The Most Beautiful
No Regrets for Our Youth
Scandal

...and I would buy that box almost exclusively to see Horse.

As would I but since Kurosawa was only first AD on Horse and directed a few sequences himself I don't think it qualifies as a Kurosawa film? Also I don't think Scandal would be included in this set given it was made one year after Stray Dog which already has its place in the collection. I would be more inclined to think that it would include Sanshiro Sugata Part I and II, I don't think these are of that great quality that they would have their own spines. I also think that The Men Who Tread on the Tiger's Tail is a very interesting film adapted from a famous Kabuki play, only at an hour long I fail to see how they could not include it.

I love the idea of a Japanese propaganda set, I hope someone at Criterion is listening closely.

tryavna wrote:Yes, why on earth would a home video company with a distinct bias toward auteurist aesthetics be interested in releasing the entire filmography of one of the biggest money-making directors in their catalogue? And why on earth would somebody who likes a particular director's style ever be interested in seeing every film that director made?

Simply put: because they are fantastic films, even if they are certainly less important than Kuro's later works. And if you've ever seen the abominations that Bo-ying and Mei Ah released of "Sanshiro Sugata" and "Tiger's Tail" (to mention just two, I couldn't bring myself to watch "No regrets" and "Sunday" yet after briefly popping them into the player and seeing something horrible again), any watchable edition would be a treat, even if the materials are not in best condition.
That said, I of course would also love to see other Japanese films from the 30s and 40s as well. A Kinugasa box would be much desired, or the Yamanaka films. But an early Kuro set (hopefully without "Scandal") would make me overjoyed.

cool pic, Domino, and sorry Tryavna, I didn't get your point at first. Must be my hurting head...too much Guinness yesterday...

zedz wrote:I sympathize, but I think the ratio of 'daring' to 'safe' Eclipse releases will be similar to that of the Criterion line. Currently it's one in six (Yay Bernard!)

I'm not sure what your definition of daring is, but while relatively unknown in the U.S., the Bernard films are standard French studio classics. I would certainly place the Malle docs and the Fuller films in a "daring" category with Bernard.

Bergman and Ozu are obvious mainstays, while the Saura falls somewhere in between.

I will snap up an Early Kurosawa Exclipse set instantly. It would be a pleasure to upgrade my videotapes and crappy Mei Ah discs.

2008 will probably bring Early Kurosawa as well as the Criterion edition of TIGER'S TAIL, which leaves a few more Kurosawa treasures still to be mined in the next couple of years.

Tommaso wrote:cool pic, Domino, and sorry Tryavna, I didn't get your point at first. Must be my hurting head...too much Guinness yesterday...

Not a problem, Tommaso.

Hope last night was worth the headache today....

GringoTex wrote:

zedz wrote:I sympathize, but I think the ratio of 'daring' to 'safe' Eclipse releases will be similar to that of the Criterion line. Currently it's one in six (Yay Bernard!)

I'm not sure what your definition of daring is, but while relatively unknown in the U.S., the Bernard films are standard French studio classics. I would certainly place the Malle docs and the Fuller films in a "daring" category with Bernard.

I call the Bernard release daring because his work is all but unknown and unavailable outside of France (I don't know if these films have been released on DVD in France). Even though the Eclipse releases are of more marginal titles, Malle and Fuller are very well-known and have a large number of their films already available on DVD, including Criterion releases. And I believe the specific films involved have been in circulation in retrospectives and on cable in recent years: they're hardly the "lost, forgotten" "eye-opening discoveries" promised in the Eclipse mission statement. But, as I said, all of the Eclipse releases are pretty esoteric by mainstream standards, and even by Criterion's standards.

Speaking of Kurosawa Criterion did release his 1975 pic DERSU UZALA on to laserdisc so i hope they can look into a dvd release?.....i hope!...

atcolomb wrote:Speaking of Kurosawa Criterion did release his 1975 pic DERSU UZALA on to laserdisc so i hope they can look into a dvd release?.....i hope!...

I'm thinking the elements are in piss poor shape, but you never know. After reading Nogami's Waiting On The Weather I really want to revisit this in a nice edition, though. Just knowing a little bit about the production makes it so much more interesting (and if they do put it out, I hope we get a healthy dose of her along with it.)

GringoTex wrote:

zedz wrote:I sympathize, but I think the ratio of 'daring' to 'safe' Eclipse releases will be similar to that of the Criterion line. Currently it's one in six (Yay Bernard!)

I'm not sure what your definition of daring is, but while relatively unknown in the U.S., the Bernard films are standard French studio classics.

That's just not true at all. You're off your head. You been privvy to some regular French repertoire exhibition or home video the few slavering fans and the folks at Janus are not?

The French are not walking around with any national secrets that don't make it beyond the border. Their standard studio classics are the same obvious shit (GONE WITH THE WIND, CASABLANCA, KING KONG, for super obvious stuff, then a level down for some Wilders, Coppolas, Scorsese, Huston, Spielberg, Wise, for slightly less obvious, then on down) as ours: GRANDE ILLUSION, PEPE LE MOKO by Duviv, RULES OF THE GAME, CHILDREN OF PARIDISE, obvious crowd pleasers, then on to the other Renoirs, Duviviers, Carnes, Bressons, Beckers, etc.

Raymond Bernard is largely forgotten beyond his own borders because he has been forgotten within his own borders. That''s generally how it works, unless a guy had a blockbuster overseas where he didn't have on at home... and we love him more than his own people do... His attempts to have his masterpieces exhibited here came to virtually NIL.

These were the four specifically cited for the Kurosawa set:

Scandal
Idiot
Records of a Living Being
No Regrets for Our Youth

If that turns out true, I'm glad to see the two MoC's in there to avoid a spine number overlap.

If that turns out to be true, MoC should hurry up and do their own "Regrets" (although there once were rumours of an early Kurosawa box to come from the bfi). Their transfers of "Scandal" and "The Idiot" can hardly be bettered (though the materials leave something to desire), and "Record" is already out in an at least acceptable version by the bfi. What we really need are those very early Kuros, and it surprises me (pleasantly) to hear that CC would want to release "Tiger's Tail" in the main collection. Unless they unearth some stunning extras, it would be a pretty short disc (at least the Bo-ying/MeiAh version is only about 60 min.).

HerrSchreck wrote:That's just not true at all. You're off your head. You been privvy to some regular French repertoire exhibition or home video the few slavering fans and the folks at Janus are not?

By "standard studio classics," I didn't mean "the most beloved and favorite films of all time" just that his place in the early French studio era is pretty well established. Maybe growing up in the cutting edge cultural panapoly of Texas (where I saw Wooden Crosses and The Chess Player on the big screen more than ten year ago) has skewed my vision, but I didn't realize Bernard was so unknown in some parts.

Anyway, my main point was that none of the films from the Bernard, Fuller, or Malle sets would likely have seen dvd without Criterion, which for me makes them daring selections.