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Hi Steven - would like to reply at greater length tomorrow perhaps. I think the personalities of De Hory et al are vital to the film. But I think the film establishes some critical distance, even if it's not entirely apparent, between structure and personality, so that we're not simply seduced by Elmyr's charms. I mean, the charm is definitely there, and not neutralized. But in the film I think Welles shows us personality and "personality." Once you go from thinking about a simple magic act to thinking about the way people "perform" as a normal, accepted part of life, your head spins.

(Consider how Elmy'rs charm act is revealed to be nothing more than a hollow magic trick when he talks about his time in jail, and his smile is not quite so easily put on anymore. ALso there is the matter of his suicide in 1976. Clearly there was more going on in the old gent's head than sniggering at world art experts and posh museums.)

Have not seen the Rivette. But the subject of older painters and their relationships with young, nubile models is probably older than Rivette, Welles, and Elmyr put together. As this is your favorite Welles you likely won't forget the small segment devoted to Picasso & Oja.

Also the film is Welles' lasting statement about Citizen Kane.

cbernard wrote:...I think the film establishes some critical distance, even if it's not entirely apparent, between structure and personality, so that we're not simply seduced by Elmyr's charms. I mean, the charm is definitely there, and not neutralized. But in the film I think Welles shows us personality and "personality." Once you go from thinking about a simple magic act to thinking about the way people "perform" as a normal, accepted part of life, your head spins.

That's a great analysis, and I agree completely (I think). My position is maybe slightly different from your own in that I'm attempting to read Welles' mind, and figure out how he wanted the personality and the structure work together. In my opinion, these personalities are the glue holding the structure together, with all critical distance coming in after the fact. I think this would work to add another layer to the film saying almost exactly what you wrote in that last sentence except more like, "see how entertaining this spectacle is? It's all part of my grand scheme." To stick with your (and Welles') magician's metaphor, what better to distract from the card trick than a clown costume? Critical distance from these personalities acting like a clown costume to hide the overall effect of illusion maybe?

Also, regarding the "head spins" comment, I think that's what could make this film timeless. It's goal as an examination of Truth and Lies is universal, profound, and very funny.

Look forward to your reply; and if my response sounded awkward, I could't really figure out the difference you distinguished between "personality" and personality.

edit: now that I've recieved the DVD and read Jonothan Rosenbaum's essay I'm a little more sure that these personalities are what attracted Welles in the first place. I'm sure he watched Reichenbach's documentary and was taken by Hory's and Irving's charisma, which inspired his desire to make the film.

I found this quote from the Rosenbaum essay also very interesting:

..."essay" or "essay film," which is what many are inclined to call F for Fake nowadays. But on reflection, this label is almost as imprecise and as misleading as "documentary", despite elements of both essay and documentary (as well as fiction) employed in the mix.

Got my F for Fake this afternoon. It's a film I've seen a number of times already, and I was most curious to rewatch the clips from The Other Side of the Wind on the supplements disc. Wow. All of you who were wondering, "If Orson Welles shot a sex scene in a car, what it would look like?" need wonder no more.

Part of the mystique of Welles is this legend of the put-upon, limited auteur who, by character assassination or by character itself, proved cinematically unable to climax in his later years. That The Other Side of the Wind was an exploration of machoism and the Hollywood tradition only makes that mystery more tantalizing, indefinable and elusive as the photoshopped smoke between Welles' fingers on the Criterion cover.

Reports of completion and a DVD release of this last, most enigmatic of Welles' projects have been scattered and sporadic, but I'd really like to see it. Not because I think it would be great. I don't. I think it's probably a mess. But as One-Man Band provides testimony, Welles' messes are often as maddeningly engaging as many completed works by others. The collapse of the production of Welles' Merchant of Venice is, by example, heartbreaking, as he performs his poorly-miked soliloquy to the jackrabbits in the fading desert sunset as some kind of vindication of his efforts or, at least, a conclusion of them.

So who knows what the latest word on Wind is?

At first I was a bit apprehensive when the film started. The quick cuts, the clever, yet easily confusing wordplay made me wonder if the whole film was going to be one long parlor gag. Even though I wondered a bit at the beginning, I was able to settle into the film and start to really pay attention. The whole way, I couldn't help but think I was being duped in some way, which I liked BTW. Quite an interesting little journey, and a wonderful story. I usually hate quickly cut films, but after the first few minutes I'm not sure if it settled down some, or I was just so emersed in the picture.

The Extras were quite good, I must say I loved having Hughes audio interview on there. You can really see how much he fooled himself, when it came to his disease. Also you can really feel how embarrassed he was about his condition. At least thats how I felt when hearing him.

ALSO, did anyone notice in the doc. about Welles' other work, when it showed scenes from The Merchant of Venice, the men in black with the mask were quite Eyes Wide Shut like? And the fact of how they are standing around, really made me feel like Kubrick seen this.
Anyone else?

I was a bit thrown off by the quick editing, too. But in that regard the film represents the tireless and inventive creativity of Welles, and his personality. Welles is sort of a Falstaff in a way, and F For Fake is about artists as fakers who dupe experts and muddle accepted truths. I think its an interesting element of the film that it resembles in form the film-maker, with its fevered rapidity and its overlapping multitude of invented fictions and truths.

The masks, I think, are just Venetian masks, inspired by Carnevale masks (which in turn were inspired by the kind worn by characters in commedia dell'arte). They became common to wear for Venetian nobility starting, I think, in the 17th century. Maybe someone better informed can give specifics. I don't think Kubrick was referrencing Welles, just using the striking and enigmatic image of the mask, so tied with Carnevale and decadent Venetian nobility, for effect.

Did anyone find the music interesting? I recognized a lot of it as pretty familiar Gypsy Csardas music, and a few of the compositions I know I've heard before. Yet someone is credited with an original score. Maybe there's other music that I didn't notice. But it does augment the fascination in the film with Hungarians as fakers.

See its not just the mask, although the exact style was in EWS as well, its the full garb, and the look of how they are just standing around. It gave off a very EWS feel.

Then again perhaps im just crazy.

Its been awhile since I've seen EWS, but if I remember from the documentary, the attire wasn't too different from what is seen in Pietro Longhi paintings. I think they were going for the same effect with the visual style, but Welles was probably more obviously using the masks and costumes because of the setting, whereas Kubrick was using it in a modern setting to create a sinister sense of otherness and displacement. I suppose Kubrick may have been inspired by Welles, but I think its equally as likely that he was aware of unique Venetian attire and commedia dell'arte, or came across images of it while researching for the film.

For those that got the f for fake dvd, could you advise, is the OMB that is included the same 90 minute cut that was also known as the german omb?

It has German narration and is about 90 minutes long, so probably yes.

Does anyone know which clips in One Man Band are from Filming The Trial?

Let me start off by saying that I am OVERWHELMINGLY GRATEFUL to Criterion for putting One Man Band on this disc. That said, however, I still wish I could have the longer version as a friend of mine was commenting on how this cut was shy another The Other Side of the Wind scene or two.

At this point, the only other source I know of to contain footage from it is the 3rd Lifetime Achievement Award ceremony (1982, I believe) where Welles only participated as long as they included some previes of the film. It used to be available on VHS, but it's now OOP.

Also, does anyone know why they only provided selected clips of London? I read on IMDB.com, which I know in error, that there is a half hour collection of this footage that made the rounds at one time. There were something like five segments, with one or two of them missing the completed ADR audio. Ring any bells?

I just bought this on ebay, and when I opened the package it was clearly a fake. Both discs are dvd-rs, and the disc covers have been done, rather nicely, on some pc printshop software. I paid for it like it was real, but I think I might keep it. Somehow owning a fake copy of this movie seems appropriate.

Actually, that would have been an ingenius packaging concept for the DVD. At least in my head.

I just bought this on ebay, and when I opened the package it was clearly a fake. Both discs are dvd-rs, and the disc covers have been done, rather nicely, on some pc printshop software. I paid for it like it was real, but I think I might keep it. Somehow owning a fake copy of this movie seems appropriate.

you know you can report it and probably get your money back? The actual release is one of the best of the year and dvd-r don't do justice.

I saw F for Fake not too long ago and just watched a little bit of it again. I love it, and I think the greatest compliment I could give to Orson Welles would be to say that his film has made me very suspicious of this recent news story: Secret lover to sell Picasso sketches

And the follow-up story: Picasso Works Sell for $1.87 Million

Is anybody else disappointed that this didn't come with one of those signed "Director Approved Edition" stickers?

zedz wrote:Is anybody else disappointed that this didn't come with one of those signed "Director Approved Edition" stickers?

Criterion is the greatest DVD company in the world, but du you expect them to get a approval and signature from the beyond?

They should've included a sticker "Director's Lover Approved Edition"... "Director's Widow Approved Edition"would've been more appropriate, but he never married Oja.

4LOM wrote:

zedz wrote:Is anybody else disappointed that this didn't come with one of those signed "Director Approved Edition" stickers?

Criterion is the greatest DVD company in the world, but du you expect them to get a approval and signature from the beyond?

Of course, it certainly would have kept the whole notion of being a fraud, fake, and a charlatan going strong, which I assume is what zedz was implying.

Kirkinson wrote:his film has made me very suspicious of this recent news story: Secret lover to sell Picasso sketches

And the follow-up story: Picasso Works Sell for $1.87 Million

I had the exact same reaction.

Andre Jurieu wrote:

4LOM wrote:

zedz wrote:Is anybody else disappointed that this didn't come with one of those signed "Director Approved Edition" stickers?

Criterion is the greatest DVD company in the world, but du you expect them to get a approval and signature from the beyond?

Of course, it certainly would have kept the whole notion of being a fraud, fake, and a charlatan going strong, which I assume is what zedz was implying.

Well, duh! Looks like it's a good thing Criterion didn't think of this particular joke!

In line with Disney's eventual takeover of our fair planet, they've decided to jump on the Clifford Irving bandwagon

4LOM wrote:

zedz wrote:Is anybody else disappointed that this didn't come with one of those signed "Director Approved Edition" stickers?

Criterion is the greatest DVD company in the world, but du you expect them to get a approval and signature from the beyond?

Unless I'm mistaken, Criterion has already done it in the case of Salesman. David Maysles died in 1987. It doesn't add a sense of charlatanry with that release though.

luxetnox wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, Criterion has already done it in the case of Salesman. David Maysles died in 1987. It doesn't add a sense of charlatanry with that release though.

Hey, he's there on Grey Gardens as well. Spooky.

Little ditty with respect to Welles I found on Ebert page today: Orson Welles in Spain at Toronto

Let's hope it true: The resurrections of Orson Welles

Amazing news. Seeing the clips in One Man Band made me very interested in seeing the film. Any theatrical release is going to be minimal, though. Hopefully, Criterion can acquire the rights.

I agree. The sex scene in the car was very well done.