576 Secret Sunshine

[zedz]

Getting way off topic:

I don't think that the argument that Nabokov intended John Shade's 'Pale Fire' to be a bad poem holds any water. Like Fyodor Godunov-Cherdyntsev's 'Life of Chernyshevsky' in The Gift (if I got all of those names right after all this time, I deserve a blini!), Nabokov wrote the poem first, since he knew the novel could only work if Shade's 'Pale Fire' was credible as a work of substance by an important poet. The narrative can't really work if it's not, if only for the simple reason that no publisher is going to submit themselves to Kinbote's insane demands for the sake of a minor, crappy poem by a minor, crappy poet.

Whether of not you like Nabokov / Shade's poem is another question, and its reception has certainly been coloured by it emerging at a time when long, rhymed, narrative poems were at their least fashionable (to that point - it's probably only become more offensive to the zeitgeist in subsequent decades!)

[Sloper]

It's a long time since I read it, but I agree Shade's poem needs to be 'good' for the narrative to work: on one level, there's something very poignant about this accomplished, sensitive, tragic and quite beautiful poem (whose author is dead) being swamped by the comments of a totally self-absorbed and unappreciative reader (obviously a parody of literary criticism in some sense - in reality Botkin is an academic, and this joke wouldn't work if the poet being 'analysed' were a lousy one).

On the other hand, as the novel goes on Kinbote's own magnum opus takes on a kind of greatness of its own, suggesting that such outlandish readings/commentaries upon great works may be conduits for a different sort of creativity. For me it was that multi-layered juxtaposition of creator/critic, great man/little man, sanity/insanity and good writing/bad writing, that kept the novel interesting in spite of its longueurs.

[warren oates]

But, after a certain standard of basic literacy and looking beyond whatever superficial conventions and style the poem presents, isn't the question of the precise artistic quality of Shade's poem an open one? Isn't it much more difficult both to write (or to pretend to write or to calibrate the writing of, as Nabokov does) and critique a thoroughly mediocre poem rather than a blatantly bad one? I thought I'd remembered Nabokov recounting in interviews that the poem "Pale Fire" was the most difficult thing he'd ever written exactly for this reason. He wanted to write something that would plausibly be taken seriously as "good" poetry in his current academic/cultural climate but that was still in his eyes rather banal.

Of course, if it really was so challenging for Nabokov then perhaps I should cut Lee Chang Dong a bit of slack.

[Michael Kerpan]

Of course, if it really was so challenging for Nabokov then perhaps I should cut Lee Chang Dong a bit of slack.

Perhaps. ;~}

[FilmFanSea]

I watched Secret Sunshine for the first time last night and was unexpectedly underwhelmed. I'm still trying to process why I felt that way. The character of Shin-ae is emotionally distant from the other characters, but Lee doesn't allow the audience any real intimacy or insight into Shin-ae. I feel he doesn't shape the narrative in any meaningful way or show much empathy for his lead character. Maybe I wanted some emotional catharsis that never came. It's not a bad movie by any means, but even after 2.5 hours, Shin-ae remains a cipher. The final shot didn't resonate with me. I feel like there were a lot of missed artistic opportunities that could've made this film transcendent. But it left me cold.

I plan to watch Poetry tonight.

[warren oates]

In contrast to Mija's nebulous grab bag of pseudo dilemmas in Poetry, I find Shin-ae's problem in Secret Sunshine to be pretty clear and affecting. She's caught in an existential crisis of meaning

Spoiler

over the horrible thing that's happened to her child.

In trying to make sense of it, she first turns to the standard answer in her community, the Christian church, with its comforting rituals of prayer and its pat ideas of theodicy. But she doesn't bargain on a God who forgives before she's ready to, seemingly with even less rhyme or reason than the dreadful events that have already befallen her. And it's this conundrum that consumes her until the end of the film. I don't think one even needs to have been raised in a religious tradition to relate, but if you're not moved by the film perhaps its because you haven't yet had a serious crisis of meaning in your own life? I get that some people might not like the film as much as I do, but to not understand or be moved by Shin-ae's conflict? To not feel her desperation in those shots where she's raging at an indifferent sky God?

[Michael Kerpan]

I would say that the protagonist is in a state of existential crisis even before the catastrophe. I would also say that Lee's presentation of Shin-ae is clinical (in the manner of Imamura, perhaps) and that he underrcuts the sort of automatic sympathy one would normally expect in a family tragedy story of this sort. (I feel more sympathy for the goofy friend and the killer's daughter).

[swo17]

But she doesn't bargain on a God who forgives before she's ready to, seemingly with even less rhyme or reason than the dreadful events that have already befallen her.

This is a big issue I have with the film.

Spoiler

In what looney branch of Christianity are you able to be completely forgiven for senselessly murdering someone's child without, at a bare minimum, a) approaching the people you've wronged and, you know, apologizing, and b) not acting pat and smug about the whole thing when they come to see you in prison? Apparently the same branch attended by Shin-ae's friends who don't leave that encounter and say "Wow, that guy's a total psychopath." It feels like Lee has built his entire film around this moment, aiming to expose some fundamental flaw in Christianity, but it's a total straw man argument.

[warren oates]

But she doesn't bargain on a God who forgives before she's ready to, seemingly with even less rhyme or reason than the dreadful events that have already befallen her.

This is a big issue I have with the film.

Spoiler

In what looney branch of Christianity are you able to be completely forgiven for senselessly murdering someone's child without, at a bare minimum, a) approaching the people you've wronged and, you know, apologizing, and b) not acting pat and smug about the whole thing when they come to see you in prison? Apparently the same branch attended by Shin-ae's friends who don't leave that encounter and say "Wow, that guy's a total psychopath." It feels like Lee has built his entire film around this moment, aiming to expose some fundamental flaw in Christianity, but it's a total straw man argument.

Depending on your point of view, Swo, that's the beautiful/horrible thing about modern Protestant Christainity. You don't need the intercession of religious specialists (like Catholic priests who prescribe penance). All you have to do is get right with God in your own private prayers, even on the gallows, and you are instantly saved and forgiven. Not that good works, sincere apologies and heavy real-world restitution shouldn't follow from that initial moment. But that's not the heart of the matter for most modern Protestants and that's not what Secret Sunshine is about.

[Michael Kerpan]

swo17 -- I suspect that the "born again Christian" phenomenon is not one you are likely to encounter much in Utah. Take a look at: http://www.born-again-christian.info/ho ... .again.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I think that Lee's depiction is totally on the mark.

For further confirmation -- take a look at murderer Michael Perry in Herzog's Into the Abyss. Perry displays precisely the same sort of creepy self assurance in his born again state that the killer in Lee's film displays -- and even has the nerve to "forgive" the family of his murder victims for wanting him executed.

[swo17]

swo17 -- I suspect that the "born again Christian" phenomenon is not one you are likely to encounter much in Utah.

Ha, I guess not. That offers some interesting perspective, though I'm still not quite sure I buy that the only one who seems to take issue with this revelation in the film is Shin-ae herself. Taking Michael Perry as an example, as I did just recently watch the Herzog as well, are there really born-again Christians out there who watch him speak and say "Wow, good for him, finding forgiveness. This guy isn't creepy at all"? Because, um, that's messed up.

[Zot!]

swo17 -- I suspect that the "born again Christian" phenomenon is not one you are likely to encounter much in Utah.

Ha, I guess not. That offers some interesting perspective, though I'm still not quite sure I buy that the only one who seems to take issue with this revelation in the film is Shin-ae herself. Taking Michael Perry as an example, as I did just recently watch the Herzog as well, are there really born-again Christians out there who watch him speak and say "Wow, good for him, finding forgiveness. This guy isn't creepy at all"? Because, um, that's messed up.

Yes, there are. I have met them, and for them, accepting Jesis is very much a secretarial procedure of following protocol. Still, I felt the film was not uneccessarly critical of their beliefs, which made it that much more powerful. I did think the petty revenge bit at the outdoor revival was rather silly, but I guess she wasn't thinking straight by that point.

Also, yes, she is not the most likable character, it's not a classic "outsider" storyline, which again makes this film that much more impressive to me.

[Michael Kerpan]

The circles I move in are mostly liberal Catholics, Unitarians and Buddhists. As a native Oklahoman who decamped long ago, I do find born again Christianity extremely creepy.

As zotl notes, Lee presnts the evangelical Christian outlook in a respectful fashion (even if one suspects he does not have much sympathy with it personally). Some evangelical Christian critics have praised the film.

As to the reaction of others in the film -- Shin-ae's goofy friend is just a nice (but not real bright guy) who is willing to fit in and not make waves. Her other Christian friends truly (and believably, to me) see the killer's (self-declared) conversion as worthy of rejoicing. She has cut herself off from pretty much everyone else at this point -- so she would not be getting differing opinions.

Note -- There are more actively practicing Christians (of all sorts -- mainline protestant, fundamentalist protestant and catholic) than actively religious Buddhists in South Korea (29% versus 22%).

[zedz]

But, after a certain standard of basic literacy and looking beyond whatever superficial conventions and style the poem presents, isn't the question of the precise artistic quality of Shade's poem an open one? Isn't it much more difficult both to write (or to pretend to write or to calibrate the writing of, as Nabokov does) and critique a thoroughly mediocre poem rather than a blatantly bad one? I thought I'd remembered Nabokov recounting in interviews that the poem "Pale Fire" was the most difficult thing he'd ever written exactly for this reason. He wanted to write something that would plausibly be taken seriously as "good" poetry in his current academic/cultural climate but that was still in his eyes rather banal.

Nope. Nabokov thought John Shade was a great poet (didn't he even playfully cite him as one in an interview?) As I recall, VN believed his best English poem apart from 'Pale Fire' was 'The Ballad of Longwood Glen' which, if you're not familiar with it, may be an even more surprising choice. I'm surprised nobody's ever turned this into a chilling children's picture book.

[FilmFanSea]

I would say that the protagonist is in a state of existential crisis even before the catastrophe. I would also say that Lee's presentation of Shin-ae is clinical (in the manner of Imamura, perhaps) and that he underrcuts the sort of automatic sympathy one would normally expect in a family tragedy story of this sort. (I feel more sympathy for the goofy friend and the killer's daughter).

I think you're right on with the word "clinical", Michael (and it's interesting that the few Imamura films I've seen--I'm thinking specifically of The Pornographers--also leave me cold). Few directors would keep the camera at such a discreet distance when

Spoiler

Shin-ae encounters her son's dead body. When she is replaying his speech presentation at school, Lee places her lying on the couch, with her body and face turned away from the camera. The scene at the crematorium, when her hysterical mother excoriates her for her lack of emotion--even then I can't recall a lingering close-up of Shin-ae, just a shot at a distance with her crouched down. Perhaps the film would have affected me more if Lee had shown us Shin-ae "in happier times". Even the lighthearted scenes (Shin-ae's mock tears when her son is hiding from her, or singing karaoke with her girlfriends) are simply included to contrast with later events (Shin-ae searching for her abducted son at home; turning away from enlisting Jong-chan's help as she sees him singing karaoke).

[Michael Kerpan]

Well, FilmFanSea, the things that bother you about the film (and Imamura's films) i one of the things that makes me like it a lot. ;~} (After all, I find Dreyer's Joan intolerable, in large part, due to the constant ultra-close-ups). ;~}

[warren oates]

I don't find the film cold at all. Imamura is an anti-humanist or an animal-humanist or something very different from Lee Chang Dong. There's definitely a distance in Imamura's work that I've seen and it doesn't have to do with blocking or camera angles so much as worldview.

I'll echo what the others above have said and add that a large part of what I like about Secret Sunshine is how deftly it manages to critique evangelical beliefs by taking them utterly seriously. It's not that true believers are presented as complete dupes. They simply need to believe in worst-case scenario salvation, like that of a senseless child murderer. If even a wretch like he can be saved just by asking, then anyone can be. If he can't.... But nobody in that world except Shin-ae ever has to experience the reality of this situation and all its implications so personally.

Those who are interested in these questions and haven't yet seen it should definitely check out Michael Tolkin's The Rapture, which also manages to personalize extreme beliefs via a drama with the highest imaginable stakes.

[FilmFanSea]

I don't think one even needs to have been raised in a religious tradition to relate, but if you're not moved by the film perhaps its because you haven't yet had a serious crisis of meaning in your own life? I get that some people might not like the film as much as I do, but to not understand or be moved by Shin-ae's conflict? To not feel her desperation in those shots where she's raging at an indifferent sky God?

I have had more existential crises in my life than I'd care to relate. I was raised Roman Catholic, but pivoted to atheism some 30 years ago. I can understand Shin-ae's situation and her desperation (and even her sense of betrayal by a too-forgiving god who leaves her son's killer with a serenity that she'll never find again). But the film didn't move me despite all of those elements, and I place that responsibility on Lee, and how he chose to tell the story.

[warren oates]

Well, FilmFanSea, are there films about this kind of thing that do move you? Anything by the biggies like Bergman, Bresson, Tarkovsky and the like or anyone else? What do they do differently?

[Michael Kerpan]

warren oates -- I don't find Secret Sunshine "cold" -- and I don't find my favorite Imamura films cold either.

FilmFanSea -- I suspect that if a director filmed this story in a way you would find effective, I would probably find it intolerable. ;~} Shin-ae -- never had serentity, not within the scope of the film. She was teetering on the edge from the start. Remember, she has chosen to go to a place in which she has no connections or support (business or personal) at all -- for no clear reason (no job awaited her there).

[FilmFanSea]

Well, FilmFanSea, are there films about this kind of thing that do move you? Anything by the biggies like Bergman, Bresson, Tarkovsky and the like or anyone else? What do they do differently?

I can think of many parallel films (at least in the sense of existential crisis or tragic loss) that move me: Any of the Dardennes' films; Bergman's Winter Light, The Silence, Virgin Spring, Wild Strawberries; Bresson's Mouchette, Diary of a Country Priest; of Tarkovsky's films, maybe The Mirror (haven't seen The Sacrifice yet); Egoyan's Sweet Hereafter; Kore-eda's Maborosi.
I bought Secret Sunshine blind partly because it was the type of film I tend to like (although I hadn't seen any of Lees other films previously). I don't tend to like modern, push-the-buttons sentimental films (e.g. Spielberg, with John Williams' music telegraphing every emotion). But Secret Sunshine was too detached for me to respond to. I will give it another view in a few months and see if it affects me differently (it occasionally happens that I'll respond much more positively to a second viewing of a film that didn't do too much for me the first time around).
But I'm also fascinated by how each of us reacts differently to certain films (e.g., Lars von Trier's Breaking the Waves was one of the most unpleasant film experiences of my entire life).

[warren oates]

All good films. Winter Light is an especially nice paring, also for the respect it accords the beliefs being dramatized. I wouldn't personally rank Secret Sunshine quite as highly as any on the list save Maborosi and the Dardennes films, but I'd say it's aspiring to similar territory. I don't care for Breaking the Waves either, though I love Von Trier for his willingness to take such wild risks each time out and I'm down for every new film of his at least once. When it comes to a film about crisis from Von Trier I'm actually partial to one of his few comedies The Idiots

Spoiler

which only becomes a tragedy in its final moments.

[knives]

Am I wrong to have the impression that the daughter was mentally slow in some fashion or other. That's impression left another layer of cruelty to a film I enjoyed immensely on the thematic level even if I'd call it the the weakest Lee film I've seen so far. It reminded me a lot of Renoir's Boudu at least through the middle section.

[Michael Kerpan]

I did not get the impression that the killer's daughter was "slow" -- just that she was troubled (and bullied by others), but was still a more morally (and mentally) sound person than the protagonist. This is (probably) my _highest_ ranked Lee film. The actress who played (excellently, I feel) the daughter apparently did not enjoy movie making and decided she didn't ever want to participate in another film.

[knives]

I suppose that is understandable. It must have been a tough place to inhabit.