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Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:23 pm
by matrixschmatrix
Roger Ryan wrote:Jeff - Thanks for the astute analysis! That certainly could help explain why the anachronism of THE INCREDIBLE JOURNEY appears in the film. As noted by "mfunk", the party guest refers to hearing a "test pressing" of "Please Mr. Kennedy" which I saw as the Coens' way of dealing with the limited chronology of the story.
Llewyn Davis has much in common with Barton Fink in that he almost always orchestrates his own downfall, but there is a crucial difference: unlike the questionably-talented Fink, Davis' song-choices are clearly meant to be leagues better than any of his contemporaries' "white bread" or novelty songs. The real 1961 Greenwich folk scene had its share of intelligent, thoughtful folksingers, but the Coens never show us anyone (until the end) who can match Davis' range and talent - that can't be accidental.
I'm not sure I agree that Davis is meant to be a standout in terms of talent- obviously, "Please Mr. Kennedy" is a mockery, but "The Last Thing on My Mind" and "Five Hundred Miles" are both songs in the same league as anything Isaac sings, and as beautifully performed within the movie. I actually thought the Coens remarkably generous in giving lovely performances to characters who might otherwise validate Davis's misanthropy, which implied to me that they don't necessarily buy into his equation of not being a complete asshole all the time with a lack of artistic integrity. Stark Sands' character in particular seemed like someone who was a totally undeserving target of Davis's scorn and a genuine artist nonetheless.
There's a bit more depth to Davis's particular song choices, I suppose, but I think I attribute that more to his self seriousness and the fact that the songs have a heavy character burden in making him something beyond a run of the mill asshole than to the movie necessarily informing us that he's uniquely gifted amongst his circle.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:26 pm
by rs98762001
Not that the Coens would give a shit, but it's galling that this masterpiece keeps getting stiffed in all the end-of-year awards. How the WGA, who should know better, could nominate mindless trifles like Lone Survivor and Her but pass this one up is truly baffling.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:29 pm
by mfunk9786
I love how a two-sentence compliment to this film has to contain slams on others. Or, rather, I hate it.
Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:02 am
by Red Screamer
IMDb wrote:At the end of the credits is an image declaring the film "Kosher for Passover"
The theatre I saw Inside Llewyn Davis at turned off the projector before the end of the credits, so can anyone confirm this? And, if so, any ideas as to its meaning in the context of the film? I know that the Passover has something to do with an angel of death, which fits snugly with events in the film, but I'm a little rusty on my Biblical stories so I could be missing something.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:13 am
by Jeff
Superswede11 wrote:The theatre I saw Inside Llewyn Davis at turned off the projector before the end of the credits, so can anyone confirm this? And, if so, any ideas as to its meaning in the context of the film? I know that the Passover has something to do with an angel of death, which fits snugly with events in the film, but I'm a little rusty on my Biblical stories so I could be missing something.
It's definitely there, at the very end of the credits alongside the MPAA logo, etc. I think it's just the Coens having a laugh.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:04 pm
by Ibnezra
During Pesach (Passover) all of the normal Kashrut laws apply. However, to remain Kosher additional dietary observances are required. Most particularly, nothing that can act in the capacity of yeast can be consumed, or even be allowed to reside within a jewish household. One such forbidden ingredient is corn, so perhaps the Coen Brothers are indicating that this film is in no way corny?
Okay, that's probably not what they're saying, but you've got a little background now.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:45 pm
by Michael Kerpan
My wife and I saw this yesterday -- and felt it had a much more generous spirit (ultimately) than its reputation. LD's growth may proceed by baby steps, but there is indeed some (moral) growth.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:03 pm
by Red Screamer
Michael Kerpan wrote:My wife and I saw this yesterday -- and felt it had a much more generous spirit (ultimately) than its reputation. LD's growth may proceed by baby steps, but there is indeed some (moral) growth.
As are most of the Coens' films. If you refuse to take their supposed soullessness for granted then you can see a streak of compassion and a love for their characters running through their work.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:24 pm
by karmajuice
Yeah, the frequently-lobbed accusations of misanthropy never rang true for me, here or elsewhere. The Coens may indulge in caricature and some pretty caustic humor, but I think these are perfectly valid choices, and I don't think they're necessarily misanthropic. And if they are? What of it? People say that as if misanthropy is an illegitimate perspective. Plenty of great works are misanthropic. There's nothing wrong with that.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:15 pm
by Michael Kerpan
BTW -- the theater (in Cambridge, MA) was 100 percent capacity -- despite having been around weeks aleady.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:22 pm
by Murdoch
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:11 am
by Michael Kerpan
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:25 am
by Murdoch
I feel compelled to say how much I loved this film. I feel others have gone over its merits and the circular narrative far more eloquently than I, but there is one scene which sticks in my mind and ranks for me, alongside the Britney Spears montage in
Spring Breakers, as my favorite moment in film for the year.
When Llewyn auditions for Grossman, and the Coens use the slow zoom toward Grossman's face as Llewyn plays, suggesting we'll finally see Llewyn get some acclaim. Then they quickly dash those hopes when Grossman says he doesn't see any money in Llewyn, shock cut to Llewyn walking in the cold weather alone, then looking for a car to hitch with. It sets up this moment of triumph that we so often see in biopics of the struggling artist getting his due, then the Coens being the Coens rip the carpet from under us and Llewyn is back in the same position as before. Call me a cynic but I just loved it.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:20 pm
by Roger Ryan
I knew the title of Davis' album (also the film's title) was a direct reference to one of Dave Van Ronk's albums, but I laughed out loud at seeing the cat peeking out from the doorway on the Ronk album cover! Fascinating how the Coens can take an image and spin a story out of it.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:30 pm
by adavis53
I read an interview lately (and I can't for the life of me find it or remember what it was in) where the Coens claimed that they had never noticed the cat in the album cover and only had it pointed out to them after the release of the film. That seems like a little too serendipitous to be true but if it is its a pretty great anecdote
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:56 pm
by mfunk9786
I have a friend who theorized that the cat plotline is a reference to this well known screenwriting euphemism (and book), meaning that you must make sure your protagonist does something redeemable during the course of your script to maintain audience interest:
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:59 pm
by Roger Ryan
I can absolutely see the Coens lifting the middle finger to that kind of screenwriting formula.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:02 pm
by Jack Phillips
mfunk9786 wrote:I have a friend who theorized that the cat plotline is a reference to this well known screenwriting euphemism (and book), meaning that you must make sure your protagonist does something redeemable during the course of your script to maintain audience interest.
The Guardian ran a piece on 16 January on this very idea.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:33 pm
by mfunk9786
Funny! Not to give my pal Luke too much credit, but we were talking about it nearly a month ago. Do you happen to have a link so I can pass it to him?
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:19 pm
by Michael Kerpan
Follow the Cat:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/ja ... reenwriter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:18 pm
by flyonthewall2983
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:31 pm
by dadaistnun
We saw this on Saturday and absolutely loved it. It might well be my favorite Coen Brothers film at this point, or at least since Barton Fink (with the caveat that I haven't seen The Ladykillers -- though somehow I doubt that will end up ranking near the top when I do get around to it). There is so much heart here, a real empathy for those who don't quite succeed they way they should, whether through bad luck or dodgy choices. Oscar Isaac is wonderful, as is the music.
Though I was initially disappointed to learn that Deakins wasn't serving as d.p. (especially considering I was not as impressed, visually, with the Coens-Lubezki collaboration as I would have expected), Delbonnel's work here is astonishingly beautiful. The sequence on the subway with the cat watching the signs go by as he goes up further & further away from home, and the reflections in the window on the reverse shots filled me with such joy (and anxiety -- two things in life that fill me with dread are one of my cats bolting out the door when I'm not looking, and driving in the snow at night, both situations this movie pulls off extremely well).
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:41 pm
by jbeall
I really enjoyed this, and was laughing out loud at John Goodman's character. (He's always a good actor, but he gets such consistently awesome roles in Coen Bros. films that half my anticipation of their films is waiting to see what role Goodman gets.)
Anyway, some thoughts and a couple of questions:
While the Coens are almost pathologically acerbic, rarely do they descend into outright misanthropy. (The one exception for me was Burn after Reading, which I loathed. That said, it's easy to hate the spook community nowadays.) Probably the darkest joke in this film for me is that Llewyn and his late singing partner recorded a song called "If I Had Wings," an especially ironic subjunctive when you consider how Mike died!
Despite the cold color palette of NYC in winter, I think the film is warm towards a number of the supporting characters, who are generally far better to Llewyn than he deserves. Llewyn's biggest problems in this film are 1) that he's not as talented as Dylan, et al, 2) his myopia, and 3) his naivete. In terms of his myopia, he makes terrible decisions, such as opting for the cash up front after recording "Please Mr. Kennedy" instead of getting royalties. Yes, he's desperate, but the decision is also consistent with this sneering dismissal of "careerism." He makes yet another short-sighted decision in telling his sister to toss his belongings, which includes his seaman's license. He knows the license is in that box--that's immediately where he goes to look when he finds that he actually needs it again--but he tells his sister to toss the box anyway. In terms of his naivete, isn't he also conned by into paying nonexistent "dues in arrears" when he tries to rejoin the merchant marine?
I also found Troy, the folk singer who's still in the army, interesting. The first time he speaks, he sounds like a total country bumpkin, and it's easy to see Llewyn doesn't think much of him. But when he's leaving to head back to Fort Dix, he seems far more centered and level-headed than Llewyn.
Finally, a question re: Jean sleeping with Pappi, the sleazy club owner. At the beginning, he says, "I'd like to fuck her," and then he tells Llewyn that he has done so. This is right after the scene in which Jean tells Llewyn that she's gotten him a gig at the Gaslight, despite the fact that Llewyn has played there recently. Am I wrong in interpreting this to mean that Jean slept with Pappi in order to get Llewyn the gig? After all, she doesn't know that her upcoming abortion is already paid for, but she does know that Llewyn's in consistently dire straits, given his vagrancy.
In this case, Llewyn's disappointment that he got the gig not through his talent, but through prostitution-by-proxy, would explain his heckling of Mrs. Hobby as a projection of his own self-loathing. It's also funny that her last name is "Hobby," implying a dilettantism that's as objectionable to Llewyn as careerism.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:27 pm
by Roger Ryan
jbeall wrote:
...Finally, a question re: Jean sleeping with Pappi, the sleazy club owner. At the beginning, he says, "I'd like to fuck her," and then he tells Llewyn that he has done so. This is right after the scene in which Jean tells Llewyn that she's gotten him a gig at the Gaslight, despite the fact that Llewyn has played there recently. Am I wrong in interpreting this to mean that Jean slept with Pappi in order to get Llewyn the gig? After all, she doesn't know that her upcoming abortion is already paid for, but she does know that Llewyn's in consistently dire straits, given his vagrancy...
I believe the Coens are leaving it ambiguous as to whether Jean slept with Pappi to get Llewyn another gig. More importantly, in his narcissistic way, Llewyn probably believes it's true since the only reason he could imagine her sleeping with this guy is to benefit Llewyn's talent.
Re: Inside Llewyn Davis (Joel and Ethan Coen, 2013)
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:29 pm
by Jack Phillips
jbeall wrote:
Anyway, some thoughts and a couple of questions:
In terms of his naivete, isn't he also conned by into paying nonexistent "dues in arrears" when he tries to rejoin the merchant marine?
Finally, a question re: Jean sleeping with Pappi, the sleazy club owner. At the beginning, he says, "I'd like to fuck her," and then he tells Llewyn that he has done so. This is right after the scene in which Jean tells Llewyn that she's gotten him a gig at the Gaslight, despite the fact that Llewyn has played there recently. Am I wrong in interpreting this to mean that Jean slept with Pappi in order to get Llewyn the gig? After all, she doesn't know that her upcoming abortion is already paid for, but she does know that Llewyn's in consistently dire straits, given his vagrancy.
In this case, Llewyn's disappointment that he got the gig not through his talent, but through prostitution-by-proxy, would explain his heckling of Mrs. Hobby as a projection of his own self-loathing. It's also funny that her last name is "Hobby," implying a dilettantism that's as objectionable to Llewyn as careerism.
I see your spoiler tags and respond with my own:
First, I quibble with your assessment of Llewyn's talent. He's not necessarily less skilled than Dylan--he just can't find acceptance. We are shown his performances and we--seeing them from the perspective of the 21st Century--can recognize how good he is. He's just arrived on the scene too early; if he'd come on the scene after Dylan rather than before he might have had a successful career.
Second, why do you thinks his "dues and arrears" are non-existent? If you are a member of a union, you have dues to pay, regardless of whether you work or not. If you don't pay them, then you are in arrears. The union doesn't let you get more work until your arrears are brought current. That's the way it works in every union I've ever heard of. Llewyn's problem is that after having paid his back dues he finds his paperwork has been thrown out, and there's a charge to get new papers, and since he's paid his dues, he doesn't have the money for the papers also. So, he can't get the papers; neither can he get his back dues returned (which he really owed).
Finally, your assessment of what Llewyn thinks happened to get him the gig at Pappi's squares with my take on the matter. However, we don't know that what Pappi said is true. It is only Llewyn's suspicion that it IS true that causes him to act the way he does, which is necessary for the plot. The objective truth in the case is unknown to us.
