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I haven't seen Dazed and Confused so I cannot comment on the comparisons (everyone, don't take this as your cue to tell me how much I should see it, I'm not interested).

But your point about Superbad being by its end an optimistic movie is spot on. I think that optimism is slightly qualified, but it is nevertheless present and is, yes, just slightly above reality. At least for me, because my "it's all going to work out" moments usually aren't based on much more than concentrated delusion, even if in the end things do turn out right.

Andre wrote:Simply put, even though I smiled at the idea that Fogel gains enough confidence and experience to brush of the image he has been carrying with him throughout high school, I couldn't help but think that it's an awful big leap of faith to believe he has enough game to go after the girl he targets.

I didn't see it as much of a big leap, perhaps because I've seen it work this way. It's surprising how easily people who appear to have no chance with an ugly, let alone a hot, woman can lay people well above themselves. I agree it's far-fetched to see Fogel as a "pussy-magnet," and much of that came from the deliberately more fantastical police characters; but I think the actual pick-up at the party hit the right note in terms of reality, not just because he has confidence and that she is clearly drunk, but because she's almost dancing in a circle by herself as though everyone else had more less become 'Fogels' when contemplating her 'hotness,' making his confidance stand out. And am I being too Freudian to see at least some connection between his inability to consumate and his later firing of the gun? Seemed like something came full-circle, like the cops made good on their accidental 'cock-block' (again, your point about an optimistic ending).

I think the reading of Seth and Evan's relationship as possibly being queer is completely offbase, and speaks more to Rogen depicting adolescent male relationships accurately more than anything else. Evan's sensitivity reminded me of myself at that age. I was completely that person: horny, terrified and respectful of women that the idea of getting wasted to lose my virginity was something I would never have felt comfortable doing. My relationship with male friends with similarly close as Evan and Seth's. I just don't think mainstream films, particularly randy sex comedies, bother to depict male relationships with the complexity that Apatow and his crew have done. Of all the male friendships I know and have known, they have been very close to what I've seen in Superbad. Guys can get very close to get guys without it being suddenly "homosexual". The cock obsession is a nothing more than a (very funny) dick joke.

And a lot of friendships - both male and female - particularly in late adolescence fizzle because as puberty ends and maturity begins the needs of those relationships change. I don't think that's anything unique to Seth and Evan's situation. To me, the ending with them leaving with the girls, still showed how terrified they were of girls, but that the relationship they had with each other gave them the courage to finally try something outside of their cocooned, nerdy comfort zone, and ultimately prepare them for post-high school life.

I saw superbad a second time, and this time I wasn't under any influences. It's funny, but it is nowhere near dazed and confused like I said.

Antoine Doinel wrote:I think the reading of Seth and Evan's relationship as possibly being queer is completely offbase...Guys can get very close to get guys without it being suddenly "homosexual". The cock obsession is a nothing more than a (very funny) dick joke.

Well, I expected that reaction to be swift. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Seth and Evan's relationship is definitely homosexual or that this particular perception is the only correct interpretation of their relationship. I'm just saying I could see how one could interpret the dynamic of the relationship between Seth and Evan in that manner. Personally, I'm pretty sure their friendship is just a regular platonic adolescent relationship between two teens who have become overly secure with one another simply because their friendship feels comfortable and effortless.

Andre Jurieu wrote:Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Seth and Evan's relationship is definitely homosexual or that this particular perception is the only correct interpretation of their relationship. I'm just saying I could see how one could interpret the dynamic of the relationship between Seth and Evan in that manner. Personally, I'm pretty sure their friendship is just a regular platonic adolescent relationship between two teens who have become overly secure with one another simply because their friendship feels comfortable and effortless.

You gotta admit though, for a bit at the end it looked like it was going to go all 'Y Tu Mama Tambien' on us.

You gotta admit though, for a bit at the end it looked like it was going to go all 'Y Tu Mama Tambien' on us.

That thought came to my mind. I wish I had a friendship like the guys when I was in high school but all my friends were girls. Go figure.

I wish I could like the movie and it was most likely that I wasn't in the right frame of mind. I will certainly check it out again when it comes out on DVD. I gave up on recent popular American comedies a while ago - The 40 Year Old Virgin, Deuce Bigalow, Wedding Crashers and such - every one of them puking homophobic jokes. For instance, the psychotic gay brother in the latter who tied Owen Wilson to the bed made me sick. That has already been way overexposed in the mainstream American cinema - another gay psycho-pervert. Not for me.

Antoine Doinel wrote:I think the reading of Seth and Evan's relationship as possibly being queer is completely offbase, and speaks more to Rogen depicting adolescent male relationships accurately more than anything else. Evan's sensitivity reminded me of myself at that age. I was completely that person: horny, terrified and respectful of women that the idea of getting wasted to lose my virginity was something I would never have felt comfortable doing. My relationship with male friends with similarly close as Evan and Seth's. I just don't think mainstream films, particularly randy sex comedies, bother to depict male relationships with the complexity that Apatow and his crew have done. Of all the male friendships I know and have known, they have been very close to what I've seen in Superbad. Guys can get very close to get guys without it being suddenly "homosexual". The cock obsession is a nothing more than a (very funny) dick joke.

And a lot of friendships - both male and female - particularly in late adolescence fizzle because as puberty ends and maturity begins the needs of those relationships change. I don't think that's anything unique to Seth and Evan's situation. To me, the ending with them leaving with the girls, still showed how terrified they were of girls, but that the relationship they had with each other gave them the courage to finally try something outside of their cocooned, nerdy comfort zone, and ultimately prepare them for post-high school life.

Excellent post. I agree 100% with all of your points. Great job, Antoine Doinel. And what the fuck is it with the Dazed and Confused fanboys? Only in a criterion forum, I suppose...

And what the fuck is it with the Dazed and Confused fanboys? Only in a criterion forum, I suppose...

I don't see anything wrong with discussing Dazed and Confused and Superbad on the same paragraph. Surely their flavors are very different. Two different films, two different directors...however, they prowl on the same territory - high school and their characters are teens looking for something to do. Superbad is good but when it comes to THE high school movie, Dazed and Confused (Criterion or not) is the one that's hard or even impossible to beat (of course my opinion).

Michael wrote:I don't see anything wrong with discussing Dazed and Confused and Superbad on the same paragraph. Surely their flavors are very different. Two different films, two different directors...however, they prowl on the same territory - high school and their characters are teens looking for something to do. Superbad is good but when it comes to THE high school movie, Dazed and Confused (Criterion or not) is the one that's hard or even impossible to beat (of course my opinion).

I'm probably the only person on earth who prefers a film like Thumbsucker.
I like both D&C and Superbad (for very different reasons)
It's all good

From a Seth Rogen interview from the latest issue of GQ:

... Rogen's ascent might signify a new era of men being men in, as Rogen puts it, an "almost gay way."

"My favorite movies growing up were buddy action comedies," he says. "The Lethal Weapon movies always struck me as quintessential male love stories. The first one is practically structured as a romantic comedy: Two guys from different backgrounds get thrown together and have to learn to work it out. We just took the subtext and made it text."

Andre Jurieu wrote:From a Seth Rogen interview from the latest issue of GQ:

... Rogen's ascent might signify a new era of men being men in, as Rogen puts it, an "almost gay way."

"My favorite movies growing up were buddy action comedies," he says. "The Lethal Weapon movies always struck me as quintessential male love stories. The first one is practically structured as a romantic comedy: Two guys from different backgrounds get thrown together and have to learn to work it out. We just took the subtext and made it text."

What he says makes complete sense. One can look at the film as breaking down the structure of a Lethal Weapon-type buddy movie and mixing it's remains with a teen movie. Add to that possible confusion over sexual identity and you have a very compelling story.

This ranks up with Rushmore and Election for being my favorite high school movies. It also outranks in some places Napoleon Dynamite, as far as the awkwardness of high school life. I can't remember a time I laughed this consistently at a film. Frankly, there are too many hilarious scenes to remember. Brilliant.

As an aside, I just watched the unrated DVD cut and I'm happy to say that Greg Mottola didn't go crazy and put every possible second of footage back in the film like Judd Apatow usually does - I liked The 40 Year Old Virgin and Knocked Up a lot, but Apatow's DVD cuts almost feel like a chore.

I liked Superbad better than Knocked Up. It was more consistently funny.

patrick wrote:As an aside, I just watched the unrated DVD cut and I'm happy to say that Greg Mottola didn't go crazy and put every possible second of footage back in the film like Judd Apatow usually does - I liked The 40 Year Old Virgin and Knocked Up a lot, but Apatow's DVD cuts almost feel like a chore.

I really enjoy the extended cut of The 40 Year Old Virgin, but I can definitely see what you mean about Knocked Up. With both films, one gets the idea that Apatow still hasn't quite figured how to write for a single film. The characters and plots in both films could easily be restructured into a television show format, particularly Knocked Up. It seems with the freedom that the big screen affords him, he has a hard time condensing his concepts. But as long as the films remain funny I don't particularly mind.

I don't really mind either, and while I didn't hate the DVD cut of 40 Year Old Virgin I also feel like 20 minutes is a lot to add to a comedy - you pretty much have to throw pacing out the window at that point, especially when the film was already two hours long. I always figured it was because Apatow consistently seems to get hilarious improvisations from his actors and can't bear to part with them. Or maybe it's simply pure economics and he wants to give DVD buyers the most bang for their "unrated" buck.

Either way, on second viewing Superbad firmly established itself as a solid film in my book. The three main actors (Cera especially) just absolutely nail their characters and are able to make their lines both hilarious and believable. Seth Rogen seems to have a solid knack for observation and characterization, possibly even more so than his mentor Apatow.

I saw this for the first time the other day. I was surprised that Rogen and his friend who he wrote with took, in my opinion, a totally original position with teenager characters. His portrayal of the quandary of the drunk hookup was pretty interesting. I was happy that a little dimension was added to the characters instead of making them look like horney teenagers banging wild.

Hi, sorry for the bump, thought people may be interested that this one is being released in Hi Def this month, with extras for the DVD too. Found a nice fun link too - essence of mclovin!

Dumbest reading of the film ever.

What's remarkable about that reading is that the only good thing about Superbad is that it clearly, and I mean clearly, sends the message to teenage boys that they shouldn't use parties as an excuse to get girls drunk and have sex with them. Though it hardly makes up for the overwhelming misogyny, the message is ultimately an important one for teenagers of a certain age, and I gave the film a lot of slack for presenting it.

dominoharvey wrote:Though it hardly makes up for the overwhelming misogyny

Really? The movie overwhelmed you with a hatred and contempt for all women?

If this is how you respond to Superbad, you should probably keep clear of Hitchcock.

Do you just go from thread to thread trying to start arguments no one wants to have?

domino harvey wrote:Do you just go from thread to thread trying to start arguments no one wants to have?

You don't want to have an argument but you want to go through threads off-handidly accusing films of "overwhelming misogyny"? Have you gone nuts? When did you get handed a free pass to make provocative statements and then walk away unchallenged? And what business do you of all people have of accusing someone else of going "from thread to thread trying to start arguments?" Isn't that basically all you do, pepper any and every thread with snide or provocative remarks?

Here's simple advice: don't want to have the argument, don't bring the subject up.

It's a motherfuckin' snark-off

Mr_sausage wrote:

dominoharvey wrote:Though it hardly makes up for the overwhelming misogyny

Really? The movie overwhelmed you with a hatred and contempt for all women?

If this is how you respond to Superbad, you should probably keep clear of Hitchcock.

Misogyny? WTF. It's a fucking teenage boy buddy movie and of course, the girls are gonna look like hot idiots in their world. There are so many silly movies for teenage girls, let the boys have it too.

I think the term "misogyny" is thrown around far, far too easily.