Eclipse Discussion and Random Speculation

[Luke M]

I'm a huge Kurosawa fan and this is a dream come true to get this many movies for a bargain. Much, much better than the $39.95 MSRP that would be attached to each.

[GringoTex]

Perhaps Criterion is catering to the completists among us. If you really, really really REALLY want every Ozu, Malle, Bergman, and Kurosawa title, then Eclipse is for you.

I would say only the Bergmans and Kurosawas are aimed at completists, as all the films are generally considered "minor" works.

The Ozu set was completely necessary for R1, as it contains some major films.

The Malle, Bernard, and Fuller were all about releasing films that have never been on DVD anywhere in the world. These for me are the major Eclipse triumphs.

The Saura is a bit of an oddball pick.

[kinjitsu]

There won't be another Eclipse release until January 2008. We'll be announcing the content soon.

I hope it's the Lubitsch!

I knew all along but was sworn to secrecy.

[My Man Godfrey]

Damn, y'all -- are you really that disappointed in the Eclipse releases thus far? I've seen some terrific movies I would never have seen otherwise -- Phantom India, Thirst, Les Miserables, I Shot Jesse James -- and the sets are neat fetish objects (for the nerdy collector in me).

What's more, the series is getting a number of long-overdue movies out on DVD in (at worst) watchable form.

(thumps chest) Where's the Eclipse love?

[jbeall]

Damn, y'all -- are you really that disappointed in the Eclipse releases thus far? I've seen some terrific movies I would never have seen otherwise -- Phantom India, Thirst, Les Miserables, I Shot Jesse James -- and the sets are neat fetish objects (for the nerdy collector in me).

I'm only disappointed in the sense that Criterion isn't releasing (on either the Criterion or Eclipse line) *my* picks. But--and this is a point I've harped on before (I'm just a fanatic screaming into the cyber-void)--I'd rather see important films by less well-known directors that have yet to see R1 release (Rivette, Ray, etc.) than minor works by directors whose work is well-represented in R1.

In that regard, Gringo Tex, you're absolutely right about Ozu. I shouldn't have lumped the Ozu box in with the Bergman and Malle sets, but now I would add the Sam Fuller box to my list of non-essential Eclipse sets. I love Fuller's stuff and think his autobiography is fantastic, but two of the three films in that box were just okay.

For me only the Ozu and Bernard sets are essential viewing. The rest are good netflix rentals to fill in the gaps, but nothing I need sitting on my shelf (unless I suddenly start making real money one day!).

[sevenarts]

My one complaint is, with all the Oshimas and Imamuras and Shinodas and Naruses (and more Ozus, for that matter, can never get enough there) potentially available, THIS is the Japanese box we get next? I may get it anyway to fill in some Kurosawa holes, but frankly pretty much every other Japanese director I've managed to see seems way more interesting than Kurosawa.

[domino harvey]

I'd wager the decision to release the Kurosawas now are twofold:
01 January is the best time to release new media, sales-wise
02 the Saura et al sets are likely not bringing in the numbers of say the Begman set, so they are putting out a title that is guaranteed to outsell the other Eclipse titles so far, to sort of build a little insurance for the next couple releases.

[Cronenfly]

I'd wager the decision to release the Kurosawas now are twofold:
01 January is the best time to release new media, sales-wise
02 the Saura et al sets are likely not bringing in the numbers of say the Begman set, so they are putting out a title that is guaranteed to outsell the other Eclipse titles so far, to sort of build a little insurance for the next couple releases.

I agree, and I think it's also worth being patient for some of the more desired but obscure titles to come. I know that it has been a long wait already, but it's still a new venture for Criterion, and I'm sure they have pressure to be even more conservative with the line than they have been (surely there's a good deal from Image). As much as I'd rather see Rivette, Immaura, Shinoda, Gremillon, et al right off the bat, I think that it needs some time. If the situation hasn't changed in a year from now, then I'll be worried/angry. In the meantime, though, the main line is offering enough of interest to keep me tided over, with Eclipse as an occasional supplement until it gets really good. And then my pocketbook will weep...I hope(?).

[zedz]

I'd wager the decision to release the Kurosawas now are twofold:
01 January is the best time to release new media, sales-wise
02 the Saura et al sets are likely not bringing in the numbers of say the Begman set, so they are putting out a title that is guaranteed to outsell the other Eclipse titles so far, to sort of build a little insurance for the next couple releases.

I hardly think that Criterion will have any opinion on the sales performance of Saura yet. In fact, it's probably too soon for them to have any real idea of long-term performance on any of the Eclipse sets.
That said, the Kurosawa set is a no-brainer saleswise. Personally, I find it a bore, but I think we've already seen more enthusiasm expressed for it than for any previous Eclipse announcement.

I agree with Schreck that it's disappointing to see so many Eclipse releases as clearing houses for safe Criterion franchises, but that was always going to be the case, and it's preferable to seeing time and money lavished on second-tier releases of third-rate films like Crisis in the main Criterion line. Basically, all of the sets are welcome, in R1 at least, and if we even get a couple of Bernard-calibre shocks and delights each year, that's a couple more than we would have got without Eclipse.

I know that sounds like damning with faint praise, but I'm actually still genuinely excited about the Eclipse project, and there are enough strongly rumoured killer sets waiting in the wings for me to remain enthusiastic.

[Cronenfly]

Sounds like a good attitude to have, zedz. And you make me wonder, too, just how well Eclipse is selling thus far. Is there any way to get ahold of such info? Does CC have an annual report that's accesible to the public?

[Awesome Welles]

My one complaint is, with all the Oshimas and Imamuras and Shinodas and Naruses (and more Ozus, for that matter, can never get enough there) potentially available, THIS is the Japanese box we get next?

I couldn't agree more.

[ellipsis7]

Yes, there's at least 2 more Ozu (Silent & Early) boxes that the CC could put together under Eclipse label, if not 3.... I still have 10 Panorama Ozu discs that could be upgraded...

[filmghost]

My one complaint is, with all the Oshimas and Imamuras and Shinodas and Naruses (and more Ozus, for that matter, can never get enough there) potentially available, THIS is the Japanese box we get next?

Is there any official indication from Criterion that they may release a Masahiro Shinoda box? I'm asking because I've recently discovered a whole bunch of Japanese releases from Toho, which are all supposed to have English subtitles and from what I've found about some of them, the picture quality seems quite nice. I don't know if you already know all about these, but I thought that I should mention it. They are all available through Yesasia.com.

- Sakura no mori no mankai no shita (Under the Blossoming Cherry Trees)
- Buraikan
- Hanare Goze Orin (Ballad of Orin)
- Kaseki no mori (The Forest of Fossils / Petrified Forest)
- Shonen Jidai (Youthful Days)
- Chinmoku (Silence)
- Shokei no Shima (Island of Punishment)

Beaver has already reviewed the first two, and Scharphedin2 has posted some images of the last one in the screencaps thread.

[sevenarts]

Is there any official indication from Criterion that they may release a Masahiro Shinoda box?

I don't know if there's anything official, it certainly does seem like the kind of thing they should be tackling though. I have the Toho Ballad of Orin, it's an amazing film and a beautiful DVD, with English subs, and I recently reviewed it. I haven't taken the plunge on any more because $40-50 a film is a bit rich for me.

[Michael Kerpan]

Even Panorama still hasn't gotten around to some wonderful early Ozu yet -- like "Walk Cheerfully" and "Lady and the Beard" (and "I Was Born But").

[Steven H]

I'm betting the Naruse Eclipse set will be all overlap from the MoC and BFI sets, which are riddled with extras, so I'm going ahead with the BFI purchase. If there's something unique in the Eclipse set it will be cheap to pick it up anyway.

The more 50s Ichikawa Kon I see (unfortunately unsubtitled) the more I think this would make a great Eclipse set. A lot of these bizarre, "avant garde slapstick" (as I believe Richie called them) comedies would be a revelation to some folks who wouldn't think something like that worth their time. A Billionaire, The Woman Who Touched the Legs, The Crowded Streetcar, Hole In One, would be perfect titles, and I haven't seen Pu-san or Mr. Lucky which both sound great.

[HerrSchreck]

I agree with Schreck that it's disappointing to see so many Eclipse releases as clearing houses for safe Criterion franchises, but that was always going to be the case.

I guess this is where I may have been a little misguided. I didn't expect them to do this, though I guess it makes economic sense catering to completists of those supergigantoid arthouse legends like Berg & Kuro. I truly thought the aim of the line was to get out lesser known masterworks of capital C-cinema (Bernard, Grem, Rivette, Duviv et al), as well as eclectic avant or sci fi that ancient purists sniff down their nose. I truly didn't expect chunks of lesser works by well known directors.

I just didn't expect to see them kicking off w so much "Kind've Good Pictures By Great Directors". That said I do welcome the Ozu and the Fuller, and the grand slam being the Bernard. But they have got to know that there is a mass of material being released on disc right now across the regions, and that the folks who purchase Eclipse have got to pace themselves with boxsets. There are some boxsets I really really yen for, stuffed with masterpieces, that I still haven't gotten around to due to cashflow. Then I hafta get ready for BERLIN ALEX, Varda, TREASURES 3.

The Saura and the Malle, and all these B & C grade pics stuffed in Big Director box sets, it just causes me to think that the "pause", if it is indeed due to retailers complaining that they are not moving this merchandise, is due to a very lukewarm launch of the line. It's not difficult to discover what the typical E buyer is yenning for, whereby they would spring for a boxset each month... but I dare say, half of the E releases so far aren't catering to this yen.

One last detail: the CC side always saw global buyers ready to double-dip even versus MoC owing to massive digital cleanup, expert staff telecine exclusive to the release, and massive extras. When you subtract the extras, the cleanup and the criterion telecine, and essentially encode the same digitape used by MoC for, say, SCANDAL & IDIOT, you really put owners of the MoC in a bind. So that's another bit of danger to revenue right there which will be completely new territory for them to contend with.

Anyhoo, despite all this, I too remain revved for next year, in the hopes of some more real justice to unseen masterworks.

[Michael Kerpan]

IThe more 50s Ichikawa Kon I see (unfortunately unsubtitled) the more I think this would make a great Eclipse set. A lot of these bizarre, "avant garde slapstick" (as I believe Richie called them) comedies would be a revelation to some folks who wouldn't think something like that worth their time. A Billionaire, The Woman Who Touched the Legs, The Crowded Streetcar, Hole In One, would be perfect titles, and I haven't seen Pu-san or Mr. Lucky which both sound great.

I've only seen a couple of these -- but I agree. How can one not love things like Machiko Kyo channeling Nancy Drew (in "Hole") and Chishu Ryu and Haruko Sugimura as the hero's crazy parents in "Crowded Streetcar". The Wada-Ichikawa team may have been at their best when doing this sort of films.

[Steven H]

I've only seen a couple of these -- but I agree. How can one not love things like Machiko Kyo channeling Nancy Drew (in "Hole") and Chishu Ryu and Haruko Sugimura as the hero's crazy parents in "Crowded Streetcar". The Wada-Ichikawa team may have been at their best when doing this sort of films.

Definitely. It's funny that what really gave Ichikawa the authority, I guess, to do his powerful art films of the 60s were his unique, outlandish, and hilarious 50s comedies. I believe these are what he was known for over there, for some time, which says something. Even in his later stuff, you can trace all those comedic elements to that decade. There's a minority of good serious films he did in the 50s (the war films Criterion released, plus Enjo, and Kokoro is beautiful as well) compared to the numerous comedies but these are nowhere to be seen and are not even mentioned, on the horizon, etc. C'mon!

Oh, and for what its worth the Japanese disc of The Hole lists the title as "Hole in One," which is interesting because I always thought it directly translated as The Pit. Maybe its colloquially used in that way.

[Michael Kerpan]

It's funny that what really gave Ichikawa the authority, I guess, to do his powerful art films of the 60s were his unique, outlandish, and hilarious 50s comedies. I believe these are what he was known for over there, for some time, which says something. Even in his later stuff, you can trace all those comedic elements to that decade. There's a minority of good serious films he did in the 50s (the war films Criterion released, plus Enjo, and Kokoro is beautiful as well) compared to the numerous comedies but these are nowhere to be seen and are not even mentioned, on the horizon

Given the fact that Ichikawa's comedies made it onto DVD fairly early -- and have been reissued several times -- someone over there must be buying his 50s work still.

Surely Criterion (or someone) should at least give "10 Dark Women" a shot. I can't imagine this not finding a cult following -- if only people could see it.

Oh, and for what its worth the Japanese disc of The Hole lists the title as "Hole in One," which is interesting because I always thought it directly translated as The Pit. Maybe its colloquially used in that way.

Having seen the film,, I think the only proper translation of "Ana" is "The Hole". ("Pit" makes no real sense in this case)..

[zedz]

I'm wondering if the inclusion of extracts from One P.M. on the Breathless extras disc signals a Pennebaker or Direct Cinema box in the future. It's unusual for Criterion to use extracts of films for which they don't hold the rights, and this at least indicates that somebody's gone to the trouble of creating a transfer of it.

Of course, it could also be destined for a future Godard disc, but I'm not sure where it would fit.

[colinr0380]

After enjoying the TV film Shall We Go To My Or Your Place Or Each Go Home Alone? on the My Life As A Dog disc how about an "Early Lasse Hallström" set? Out of the films I have seen A Lover and His Lass, Father To Be and Happy We are all neglected and deserve a wider release (I have not seen The Rooster or the other TV films). They also fit well with the Eclipse idea of being films that don't really need any extra features as they pretty much speak for themselves (I'm not sure whether there would be much that could be put on a full Criterion release anyway, apart from a Hallström interview).

I also much prefer them to his more recent Cider House Rules/Shipping News/Chocolat adaptations!

[My Man Godfrey]

I really like Lasse Hallstrom's first few films . . . but I wonder whether, at this point, putting out an "Early Hallstrom" box wouldn't seem a bit like releasing an "Early Joel Schumacher" box. Hallstrom's become such a boring Hollywood hack.

PS: Now I'm imagining what an "Early Schumacher" Eclipse set would consist of. St Elmo's Fire, Flatliners, The Lost Boys . . .

[miless]

I also much prefer them to his more recent Cider House Rules/Shipping News/Chocolat adaptations!

well, those three films are certainly better than Casanova.

[colinr0380]

I really like Lasse Hallstrom's first few films . . . but I wonder whether, at this point, putting out an "Early Hallstrom" box wouldn't seem a bit like releasing an "Early Joel Schumacher" box.

True. It is a shame though that those early films are not so well known (I only got to see them because the BBC did a mini-season of them back in the mid 90s). ABBA The Movie is also a big guilty pleasure but is quite different - those early three films seem to belong together and it would also make sense for Criterion to release these well worth seeing but 'lesser' films on Eclipse to complement their full-blown Criterion edition of My Life As A Dog, which they all seem to be leading up to.

I also much prefer them to his more recent Cider House Rules/Shipping News/Chocolat adaptations!

well, those three films are certainly better than Casanova.

Yes, I must admit to not even wanting to go near that one (at least I sat down and watched the other three!) I'm still not sure what people see in Heath Ledger!

Perhaps my lack of interest was due to Casanova overload? There was also a BBC version the same year with Peter O'Toole and David Tenant. Unfortunately I missed most of that as well.

I have also still got the Dennis Potter 1971 adaptation and Fellini's Casanova with Donald Sutherland in my 'to watch' pile, so I didn't feel the need to rush out to get another one!

Though if it comes on television I'll probably watch it just to see Jeremy Irons and Lena Olin - the same with the BBC version, if it gets repeated, for O'Toole and Claire Higgins (Aunt Julia from Hellraiser!)

The best version (that I have actually seen!) so far is still the 1927 French version.