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criterion10 wrote:Thank you for sharing this. Just out of curiosity, the person you asked -- how recent was this decision revisited? And also, did they comment at all on the newfound strength between Criterion and WB? In other words, given the supposed success of the licensing agreement, might Criterion have any power to push for a release, that they did not have before?

Sounded like it was maybe a year or two before when it was last looked at internally at WB.

The relationship with Criterion sounded rather solid, but we didn't discuss it much further than with that vague description.

It didn't sound like Criterion would be able to wrestle The Devils away from them, however. It sounded almost like WB may have told Criterion to never bother to bring it up, and that it was an absolute no-no.

Also, keep in mind this was a five minutes or less conversation.

knives wrote: Couldn't WB theoretically put forth similar demands that Disney did when they licensed out Something Wicked This Way Comes forcing all mention of WB off the release?

It's not like it wouldn't be unprecedented (or "unpresidented" because I can't help myself). Though I believe it was more related to Regency, when the director's cut of Natural Born Killers was released by Trimark and Pioneer (VHS and LaserDisc respectively) the one condition was all mention of Warner had to be removed as they wanted to distance themselves from it.

But there's some hope that maybe they'll turn around on the Devils sometime since they eventually did release the director's cut of NBK themselves.

captveg wrote:It sounded almost like WB may have told Criterion to never bother to bring it up, and that it was an absolute no-no.

All I can say with certainty is that during one of the Wexner talks a few years back (possibly the one where Kim confirmed the so-called list of WB titles that was eventually approved), Becker himself mentioned The Devils as being a "dream" release, and that it had been discussed with WB before, although obviously being vague as to what those discussions entailed. I remember him leaving the issue open-ended, so here's hoping.

I'll be surprised if Criterion get anywhere themselves - I believe that Mark Kermode said that the BFI made enquiries about just buying the film from Warner lock, stock and barrel but that the executives that are blocking a release believe they're performing a public duty in suppressing it - but I had wondered if Chris Nolan might be able to persuade them, seeing as he's bringing in hundreds of millions for them.

captveg wrote:And what is frustrating there is that they got it, but only for DVD. So while the BFI can rightly point out that WB's fears were unfounded because of the total ignoring of the release from 99.99999% of the world's population, WB can come back and wrongly think that it's only because they prevented a Blu-ray release.

I don't know about the UK, but in the US, I think DVDs still outsell BDs, so WB's justification would more likely be based on concerns it would provoke more controversy in the US than in the UK.

FrauBlucher wrote:I wasn't making a point about sales. Of course Pans Labyrinth will sell more. That's a no brainer. No one would have expected Warner to license such a high profile "Golden Age of Hollywood" title out to anyone even as recently as two years back. That's not the way they did business. Clearly, something changed inside their corporate offices that has kicked the vault wide open. That's why I will not be surprised if 2001 ends up with Criterion.

But of course it's about sales. It being a Golden Age of Hollywood film means nothing to WB if they don't think the Blu-ray will sell enough to justify holding onto a release for themselves. Something has changed in their attitude toward licensing, but McCabe & Mrs. Miller and The Asphalt Jungle evidence that almost as much. Mildred Pierce didn't surprise me very much because they didn't even release any of the Bogie-Bacall films on their main line. Almost every new Warner licensee has seemed to open the door to the vault a little more and, to my mind, Mildred Pierce continues that progression. But the progression doesn't go straight from Mildred Pierce to 2001 or every single title in the vault. I still don't see WB licensing a color film of that stature to Criterion for years. Lolita or Barry Lyndon are a lot more plausible.

With classic Hollywood there are basically Disney movies, Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and Casablanca. They compete with contemporary releases, everything else sells teeny tiny fractions of their numbers. So while some titles like Mildred pierce or McCabe and mrs miller may have internal studio prestige or high profiles within the cinema community they are pretty minor sellers, indistinguishable commercially from any of the thousands of others within the studios. This was not necessarily true in the height of the DVD bubble, but now that the sell through model has expired its profit maximizing lifetime and been replaced by choice consumers with streaming models, disc ownership has become a niche market. So in order to diversify revenue streams and exploit assets as much as possible, lower profit licensing schema now make fiscal sense for all the studios except for those three WB mega sellers.

I imagine we'll get citizen Kane and King Kong from criterion on bluray in the near future.


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movielocke wrote:I imagine we'll get citizen Kane and King Kong from criterion on bluray in the near future.

Would love to see a port of the old LD extras!

Criterion will absolutely wait for Spine 1000 for Citizen Kane

Noiradelic wrote:But the progression doesn't go straight from Mildred Pierce to 2001 or every single title in the vault. I still don't see WB licensing a color film of that stature to Criterion for years. Lolita or Barry Lyndon are a lot more plausible.

One reason why I thought Criterion couldn't get in distance of getting Clockwork Orange, The Shining or Full Metal Jacket is that you probably see more of those films on basic cable channels like IFC than you would literally any other Kubrick movie. 2001 at best can be on rotation on something like Netflix or HBO, but rarely on a network with commercial interruption. Lolita and Barry Lyndon even less so.

Basic cable, and even the premiums to a degree have become a bit homogenized and it feels like titles get squeezed out where before it felt like you could see anything within reason on those channels. And the only titles from the classic era you'll likely see on them are the titles movielocke mentioned. Everything else is pretty much from the 80's onwards. I feel like this will play a part somehow, in what Criterion could get out of this deal.

movielocke wrote:With classic Hollywood there are basically Disney movies, Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, and Casablanca. They compete with contemporary releases, everything else sells teeny tiny fractions of their numbers. So while some titles like Mildred pierce or McCabe and mrs miller may have internal studio prestige or high profiles within the cinema community they are pretty minor sellers, indistinguishable commercially from any of the thousands of others within the studios. This was not necessarily true in the height of the DVD bubble, but now that the sell through model has expired its profit maximizing lifetime and been replaced by choice consumers with streaming models, disc ownership has become a niche market. So in order to diversify revenue streams and exploit assets as much as possible, lower profit licensing schema now make fiscal sense for all the studios except for those three WB mega sellers.

I imagine we'll get citizen Kane and King Kong from criterion on bluray in the near future.

Agree that we may reach this point in several or even a few years, but there are levels of commercial viability, and I think we'd see Barry Lyndon before 2001 and Magnificent Ambersons (unless ambitious supplements delayed it for years) before Kane. WB just rereleased Kane a month ago.

movielocke wrote:So while some titles like Mildred pierce or McCabe and mrs miller may have internal studio prestige or high profiles within the cinema community they are pretty minor sellers, indistinguishable commercially from any of the thousands of others within the studios.

This is exactly correct. Warner's "Golden Age of Hollywood" and later classics, I.E. 2001, was and is all about prestige for the studio, if it wasn't they would have licensed out many of these titles way back when Fox, Sony, Universal and the rest were licensing out their older cataloge to Criterion, TT, Kino and other boutiques here and overseas. Now, for whatever reason they are, and some think it could be that the Filmstruck deal has something to do with this. Yes, I believe it's a big part it. As far as sales go, we all know that old B&W bring in much less revenue for the studios, but that doesn't subtract the importance and the identity they create for the studios, especially Warner Bros.

See the studios open up their vaults to Criterion and other, smaller boutique labels feels almost like a double-edged sword. On one hand, it's amazing to see Criterion have access to films we never thought were possible, but on the other hand, we're likely witnessing the slow death of physical media.

No format truly dies. If the cassette tape can make a comeback, anything's possible.

I'm super into wax cylinders and magnetic wire recordings right now.

At the end of this short interview about FilmStruck Peter Becker says that they are going to release an Eclipse set of Berlanga films:

But at the same time, we’ll be able to program, on the channel, a whole series of Berlanga films that will follow The Executioner and will ultimately make their onto an Eclipse set on physical media

Are they still doing Eclipse sets? The last one was the Duvivier at the beginning of November 2015.

Was this meant for this thread?

I've been going through all the Berlangas on Filmstruck, and enjoying a lot of it. I would hope Placido is still significant enough to merit a standalone release (it's also on the TSPDT 1,000 along with El verdugo, but that hasn't stopped Criterion before). I really hope Criterion's giving Eclipse a serious rethink, and maybe models it going forward on something like the Arrow Nikkatsu sets, which have (practically) no extras and fits all three films on a single disc. It'd probably have some compression problems as stacked Criterion releases are wont to have but I think this is a better solution that's certainly more interesting to me than more DVDs.

(My prediction: Placido mainline release in a year or two, includes a bonus of one of the other early Berlangas, and the Eclipse will cover the remaining five, operating on a format of the films both at the start and end of his career)

Werewolf by Night wrote:Are they still doing Eclipse sets? The last one was the Duvivier at the beginning of November 2015.

launching FilmStruck, in conjunction with the departure of michael koresky from criterion, means the labor resources eclipse releases need have probably been absent or allocated elsewhere, but it doesn't mean the line is dead, just backburnered, like the year of zatoichi.

Probably not a priority since they busy releasing MGM, Sony and Warner catalogs titles.

Ribs wrote:Was this meant for this thread?

Oh, god damn it. No, I meant to post this in the forthcoming thread #-o

To revive the rumors from last year's drawing, every Blu-ray version of Warners' JFK release is now OOP...

Was that a title in the Fox/Regency deal from a few years ago?

When CC gets around to releasing They Live By Night, I hope they port over the WB Muller/Granger commentary.

domino harvey wrote:To revive the rumors from last year's drawing, every Blu-ray version of Warners' JFK release is now OOP...

arent we coming up on the declassification?

I maintain the warren commission found out Oswald did it to prove himself to Cuba but not at cubas behest, but they knew that alone would be enough to trigger a war on the same assassination basis that started WWI, so they covered up the connection to prevent another war.