criterionforum.org

Posted: **Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:23 pm**

I figured out that Gary was something of a libertarian-leaning Ayn Rand acolyte some years ago, but as that didn’t seem to creep into his professional work, I paid it no mind and considered it none of my business

But now, despite Gary deleting the ProWhitesUnite follow, even his rest of his current constellation of other follows indicate a comfort level with White Nationalist rhetoric that troubles me. Especially in the present environment.

He still provides a valuable professional service which I use often and would like to continue to reward monetarily. Even though I haven’t found this rhetoric promoted in his reviews, I have deep qualms about supporting supporters of White Nationalism. I may draw the line at continuing to use his “Amazon associate” link for discs I buy based on his reviews, but I certainly won’t provide Patreon contributions at this point. In any case, I’ll continue to monitor the situation.

I really wish this wasn’t our present situation.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:51 am**

DarkImbecile wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:11 pm
furbicide wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:07 pm... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...

...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...

...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?

Well, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);

2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and

3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.

Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:33 pm**

I don't think it's particularly crazy to say that I do not wish to patronize a service run by someone like that. These are people causing harm to many of my friends and relatives, not to mention myself. I'm not sure what suggesting that his business is "faultless apart from its association with him" is meant to achieve - if I found out my favorite pizza shop owner was a subscriber to Trump Hat Magazine and The White Power Gazette I'd immediately find somewhere else to eat pizza.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:22 pm**

Can’t these guys only be edge-enhancement-nazis?!

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm**

But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:39 pm**

furbicide wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:51 am
DarkImbecile wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:11 pm
furbicide wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:07 pm... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...

...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...

...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?
Well, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);

2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and

3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.

Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.

I don't want to speak for anyone else's opinion on this issue, but to me the quotes I listed do seem like hyperbolic oversimplifications of what people have actually said here. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone insisted that Tooze is without a doubt a virulent racist, or that he's indefensible, or that anyone not willing to "throw someone in the trash" is an enabler or apologist. Most of the users with the harshest responses to that account and the implications of following it nevertheless acknowledged that they'd continue to patronize the man's site, and pretty much everyone has offered nuanced responses regardless of where they land on how to engage (or not) with Tooze going forward, so your admonition that people need slow down and rationally consider this issue seems to be misplaced.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:41 pm**

JabbaTheSlut wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.

Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:24 pm**

swo17 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:41 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.

I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:27 pm**

The timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:32 pm**

DarkImbecile wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:27 pm The timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.

I admire your strength to keep up a humanistic attitude towards white nationalists, but c’mon, nazis, they spit on tolerance and humanity.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:46 pm**

And what's wrong with white nationalists--that they consider some people to be undeserving of dignity and think the world would be better off without them?

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:50 pm**

... and that’s enough of this thread for me.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:08 pm**

JabbaTheSlut wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:24 pm
swo17 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:41 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:27 pm But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.

Actually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:13 pm**

knives wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:08 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:24 pm
swo17 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:41 pm
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.
Actually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.

Could be great, but to organise the whole nazi family in this kind of treatment is pretty hard. Society has to teach them that their violent, hate filled world view is not accepted. Of course these white supremacist’s racist sentiments spur out of unemployment, shortcomings of social care etc. The society is ill, the nazis are a symptom, not the reason.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:17 pm**

CliffsNotes summary of this thread

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:29 pm**

My summary of this thread: good grief

.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:08 pm**

I’m not interested in participating in the discourse any longer, as I’m not sure if I understand how the world works anymore. However, what do we make of the fact that DVD Beaver has promoted the works of Filmmakers of all races for years? You’d have to be a hell of a masochist to compare the two versions of 1000 hours of Pioneers of African American Cinema, if you held a bigoted viewpoint and to top it off give it your “highest recommendation”. Take a look, its hardly an isolated example.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:10 pm**

Clearly this thread mirrors the polarization of society. For those that will give Gary the benefit of the doubt that he is not a nazi will continue to visit his site (which I fall under) and the others who think he is evil and complicit will want him flogged and have his cinema privileges taken away. Nothing will be settled, but the question that remains is if someone posts his review will a mod delete it from the boards?

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:53 pm**

I would think that DVD Beaver review link puns are form last remaining bi-partisan consensus in the US.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:12 pm**

FrauBlucher wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:10 pm Clearly this thread mirrors the polarization of society. For those that will give Gary the benefit of the doubt that he is not a nazi will continue to visit his site (which I fall under) and the others who think he is evil and complicit will want him flogged and have his cinema privileges taken away. Nothing will be settled, but the question that remains is if someone posts his review will a mod delete it from the boards?

To be fair, I don’t think there’s remotely been any suggestion of that. Otherwise, as the exchange between JTS and swo shows, there’s actually quite a lot at stake in how we respond to cases like this, and more measured and nuanced approaches like DarkImbecile’s do still have consequences in one direction or other (in this case, a de facto boycott). Personally, I’ve always been a strong believer in playing the ball, not the man; that is to say, we achieve much more political progress by confronting and attacking the harmful ideology, not exercising mob punishment on the individuals (possibly?) under its sway. A worldview based on disenfranchisement and misdirected anger doesn’t tend to collapse under the weight of further ostracisation, whereas critical, non-enabling friendship/association from those who feel they can offer it can be a substantial force for good. (And to those inclined to respond “but isn’t it our right to not visit Tooze’s website if we don’t feel like it anymore?”, the answer is yes, of course it is. But all actions have consequences.)

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:30 pm**

furbicide wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:12 pm as the exchange between JTS and swo shows, there’s actually quite a lot at stake in how we respond to cases like this

I'm not sure I even understand what happened here. In my view, JTS was expressing unrealistic if not outright dangerous opinions, I attempted (perhaps poorly) to turn his own argument against him, and suddenly everyone was backing away. I don't find, say, fdm's subsequent eyeroll post to be very helpful because I legitimately don't know to which side it's directed. I should have thought it went without saying that my last comment was in no way defending white nationalism, but here I am clarifying just to make sure.

Posted: **Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:45 pm**

swo17 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:30 pm I should have thought it went without saying that my last comment was in no way defending white nationalism, but here I am clarifying just to make sure.

I should have thought it was clear too.

Posted: **Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:19 am**

Nothing's stopping Gary, a member here, from posting in this thread and setting the record straight. Surely he's aware of the turn the thread has taken. It says something that he's remained silent.

Posted: **Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:22 am**

Zot! wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:08 pm However, what do we make of the fact that DVD Beaver has promoted the works of Filmmakers of all races for years? You’d have to be a hell of a masochist to compare the two versions of 1000 hours of Pioneers of African American Cinema, if you held a bigoted viewpoint and to top it off give it your “highest recommendation”. Take a look, its hardly an isolated example.

Wholeheartedly agree.

furbicide wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:12 pm
FrauBlucher wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:10 pm but the question that remains is if someone posts his review will a mod delete it from the boards?
To be fair, I don’t think there’s remotely been any suggestion of that.

I don't know that. Nothing has been suggested either way. It sounds like there are non mods here that would remove the reviews in a blink.

swo17 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:30 pm In my view, JTS was expressing unrealistic if not outright dangerous opinions

This is what made me post as well. I got what you were saying. btw... I'm sorry you deleted your post about the awful puns.

Posted: **Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:24 am**

denti alligator wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:19 am Nothing's stopping Gary, a member here, from posting in this thread and setting the record straight. Surely he's aware of the turn the thread has taken. It says something that he's remained silent.

Gary hasn't logged into our forum since 2010

criterionforum.org

DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver

Re: DVDBeaver