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therewillbeblus wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:11 pm

Mr Sausage wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:08 pm Male pattern baldness is a form of alopecia (androgenic alopecia).

'Guess I have alopecia!

You can PM me the list of people you want me to slap on your behalf.

A couple of days ago, my knowledge of Will Smith was basically:
he's a very popular actor of modest talent;
he used to be a terrible rapper with a terrible tie-in sitcom (or was it the other way around?)

Now I know all sorts of things about him:
he's an arsehole;
he's a violent arsehole;
he's a sexist arsehole;
he's a Scientologist;
his wife is going bald.

Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

swo17 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:35 pm Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

IIRC Judd Apatow tweeted a similar remark, especially with regards to Rock's choice of G.I. Jane as a comparison, but it must've gotten some blowback because it was soon deleted.

That makes sense to me swo.

And Smith did laugh at Rock's joke initially. I don't think we ever got to see the full footage of what transpired between him laughing and running onto the stage though there was a brief shot of JPS cringing in reaction to the joke. What are the odds of him having gotten the thousand yard stare from her and he immediately felt guilty for laughing? Like, how could you laugh at this? Not saying she egged him on, but I don't know how else to explain him going from laughing at the joke to foaming at the mouth in a matter of seconds.

swo17 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:35 pm Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

Those were my thoughts, too. It was a remarkably harmless comment given the reaction. Rock pointed out her distinctive hair style by comparing it to the most famous instance of another actress sporting that same hair style. But many people are acting as tho' he'd said she were auditioning to be the next John McClane, which would've been pointedly insulting.

What's funny is that, in Hollywood movies, reacting with sudden violence to a perceived slight is usually short hand for a character's antisocial personality. How many crime or prison movies have a harmless comment met with sudden unprovoked violence as a way to show the horrifying lack of safety in the given situation? I saw a pointed example recently in the third season of Mr. Inbetween.

We can add Zoe Kravitz to the depressingly short list of people in attendance who did not stand for Smith’s win. She also posted this caption on her Instagram post with Oscar dress

here's a picture of my dress at the show where we are apparently assaulting people on stage now.

Possibly also Bardem and Cruz?

zedz wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:33 pm A couple of days ago, my knowledge of Will Smith was basically:
he's a very popular actor of modest talent;
he used to be a terrible rapper with a terrible tie-in sitcom (or was it the other way around?)

Now I know all sorts of things about him:
he's an arsehole;
he's a violent arsehole;
he's a sexist arsehole;
he's a Scientologist;
his wife is going bald.

I've always felt he exhibited very off-putting narcissistic traits- often in small forms (refusing to let the camera share the love with other celebrities as he followed it for what felt like five minutes to continue promoting a movie of his during a Celtics/Lakers playoffs game about ten years ago, not taking a hint that they needed to move on and fake-smiling with eye contact at the 'audience' the whole time; an article detailing his double-decker vanity trailer bus causing insane traffic in NYC, which he refused to move blocking popular streets from one way traffic; saying he'd buy his daughter a pony after a business conflict with Hancock to make up for a relational conflict) but nonetheless making me question his willingness to engage below his ego

Swo, well put, agreed

Sausage, I know you're referring to 'move examples' as a joke but I do think you are onto something there. I don't want to diagnose Smith based on an instance, let alone assume that a diagnosis assumes the character of a human being, though I'm thinking more of the Narcissistic or Histrionic variety, rather than Antisocial (sociopathy) since he clearly has feelings towards family members/other people and doesn't meet criteria for that one even on a basic level (if only selective in that sphere) but the sad truth is that personality disorders in general can bring erratic behavior out quite frequently- not to pathologize, but those are often not diagnosed correctly or treated correctly or at all

swo17 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:35 pm Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

I 100% agree. How can it be that being compared to Demi Moore is offensive now?

Polling shows 3 out of 5 Americans disapprove of Smith assaulting Rock

And a betting site used Twitter geotagging analyses to show that a vast majority of states’ users (41-9) supported Rock over Smith

Not surprising given the past few years, but apparently some people are claiming it was staged because Rock was wearing a facepad based on a laughably doctored photo.

swo17 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:35 pm Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

For sure. Upthread I said Chris was "not completely innocent" and this is similar to how I meant it. I hadn't yet considered the X factor of Chris's awareness, or lack thereof, of JPS's medical condition before he made the joke. Even though she's been open about it on her social media, that doesn't mean Chris knew. If that's the case, then he made the joke thinking her baldness was her choice, thus he was merely a victim of misunderstanding. But if he knew about her condition and made the joke anyway, that would be mean-spirited. Of course, that still doesn't warrant Will's smack. But anyway, I was not implying Chris's transgression was on a similar level, and considering swo's further examination here, 98% innocent sounds about right.

swo17 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:35 pm Controversial(?) opinion: Rock did not insult JPS. So she has a medical condition that affects her hair. If she was self-conscious about it she might have worn any manner of head covering. She instead chose to embrace her baldness. Good on her for that. If she had tried to hide it and Rock knew that and called attention to it, that would be mean-spirited. Or if he had suggested that her look made her less of a woman, that would also be mean-spirited. What did he do? He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character. Where is the insult in that? Now, JPS was obviously offended, which cannot be disregarded. I'm not sure what do with that part of it. But in my mind, Rock is at least like 98% innocent here

This seems like it's deliberately ignoring all context. It was clearly a joke designed to roast JPS, in the spirit of a million other jokes at every other awards show meant to roast celebrities. And it was taken that way by a large number of the audience who laughed at it, apparently including Will at first, and like you say, I think we can say that it was definitely taken as an insult by JPS.

And, in context, "hey, you remind me of a strong female movie character" is not really a joke. On paper, you can deconstruct it and say that, you know, just in terms of pure substance, it's not really an insult ... but I don't think anyone can say, without being really obtuse, that Rock's intention wasn't to point and laugh at the bald woman, however mildly. That GI Jane is a strong female character seems completely incidental to me - she was just an easy reference so that everyone would know what he meant. Like, Sinead O'Connor would also have been an obvious reference, and a lot of people (including me) would have some nice things to say about Sinead O'Connor, but we would have still all known that that wasn't what he meant.

Of course, I agree with Mr. Sausage that "It was a remarkably harmless comment given the reaction", and it certainly could have been meaner. But that doesn't mean that we have to bend over backwards to make this #actually a compliment that Rock was paying her.

I can't believe this ridiculous story is still dominating the news with all kinds of silly think pieces still being churned out. What's this revealing, more than anything, is how most people have never gotten punched in the face. Even the Kareem take a couple of you lauded is way over the top and he knows better, but the man is 75 years old so I'll give him a pass.

In what world do you walk up on a dude, slap them and then just turn around and walk away like you're the Marquess of Queensberry?

We are really the most fragile group of people who have ever walked the earth.

Now I know I’m on the right side of this

Haha, why am I not surprised that Black Hat is humblebragging about how many people have punched him in the face.

Brian C wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:49 amThis seems like it's deliberately ignoring all context. It was clearly a joke designed to roast JPS, in the spirit of a million other jokes at every other awards show meant to roast celebrities. And it was taken that way by a large number of the audience who laughed at it, apparently including Will at first, and like you say, I think we can say that it was definitely taken as an insult by JPS.

And, in context, "hey, you remind me of a strong female movie character" is not really a joke. On paper, you can deconstruct it and say that, you know, just in terms of pure substance, it's not really an insult ... but I don't think anyone can say, without being really obtuse, that Rock's intention wasn't to point and laugh at the bald woman, however mildly. That GI Jane is a strong female character seems completely incidental to me - she was just an easy reference so that everyone would know what he meant. Like, Sinead O'Connor would also have been an obvious reference, and a lot of people (including me) would have some nice things to say about Sinead O'Connor, but we would have still all known that that wasn't what he meant.

Of course, I agree with Mr. Sausage that "It was a remarkably harmless comment given the reaction", and it certainly could have been meaner. But that doesn't mean that we have to bend over backwards to make this #actually a compliment that Rock was paying her.

Fair points, and I agree it wasn't a compliment, but in the context of a roast, how mean-spirited was the joke, really? And I think the character chosen does change the meaning of the joke. Consider for instance the different implications if he had asked if she was preparing to play Elmer Fudd, or star in a new Coneheads movie.

For what it's worth, the reason I commented in the first place was because I had just heard someone on TV claiming that Rock was either equally to blame or close to it, that he had attacked Smith's family or honor or something like that, and not being able to respond to the guy on TV, I shared my thoughts in this thread

DH - You literally read an oped from a 75-year-old man, who has been a celebrity for 55 years, connecting a grown man celebrity slapping another grown man celebrity to all kinds of societal ills calling it "a great piece". I don't think that reflects on you (or the others who applauded it) in the way you believe it does.

Brian - Ha, I'm no tough guy but, sure, I've been held accountable a few times. You haven't?

When you decide to be violent, in the real world, it isn't something that just goes away. It's an ongoing thing, even if you don't want it, because you're going to have people speaking for you who you don't even know are speaking for you.

I'm not advocating for violence, but I'm surprised by just how few people understand how violence works.

Black Hat — what are you arguing here? I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at.

swo17 wrote: He acknowledged the distinctive look that she had chosen for herself on a night when she would certainly be in the spotlight, and compared it to that of a strong female movie character.

I wondered that myself and then thought it's hair-pulling.

Black Hat wrote: What's this revealing, more than anything, is how most people have never gotten punched in the face.

1. Is it a good or a bad thing ?
2. I'm unsure if we need to experience such expression of violence first hand to have an opinion on how to behave publicly. Do we need to have been shot to have an opinion on gun control ?

Black Hat, I think a black celebrity speaking out about the influence of black celebrities on the emulated behavior of black children is worth listening to, and to say he “knows better” than his own social context and the experience therein is directly hypocritical to the accusations you’re lobbing at him. Nice of you to give him a pass due to ageism negating the value of his insights tho

Don’t ask questions of Black Hat, he’ll just answer them

soundchaser wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:36 am Black Hat — what are you arguing here? I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at.

The reaction is even more bonkers than what Smith did and I think that, among other things, it's connected to the seeming lack of experience people have with fights/violence.

tenia - You're one of the smartest people on this forum so, I know you could do much better than that. Violence is, obviously, never the answer but it is part of the human condition and this revealed how little a grasp people have on how fights work, exhibit a: the man hit him and then turned his back!

twbb - Yeah, man, I don't understand you, but it seems like you're looking for something that isn't there or trying to create it and I'm not here for that. Thanks.

domino harvey wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:02 am Don’t ask questions of Black Hat, he’ll just answer them

You always make me feel so welcome darling.

goodnight vienna!

At the risk of being drawn further into this, I think it’s violence/fighting in *this specific context* that has provoked such a reaction. Very few people have experience watching a fight on a live awards show because it doesn’t really happen!