Brokeback Mountain (Ang Lee, 2005)

[Michael]

WellGrandma is the great Helene Surgere -- leading lady for Paul Vecchiali, Jean-Claude Guiguet, Andre Techine and Pier Paolo Pasolini.

Wow. Didn't realized that she's one of the women in Salo.

[viciousliar]

You sound almost impossibly sweet and vulnerable, Michael. I do hope you're alright.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm perfectly alright. But vulnerable? Hell no.

[viciousliar]

Yeah, I'm perfectly alright. But vulnerable? Hell no.

Good for you!! You certainly could have fooled me. I, myself, am extremely vulnerable - and it's such a pain in the ass sometimes(language!) - like I have no skin.

[Michael]

Well I'm definitely thin-skinned and proud to be that way as long as I can defend myself. Invunche suggested me earlier to "thicken" my skin. No way! Being sensitive is more like me.

[viciousliar]

Well I'm definitely thin-skinned and proud to be that way as long as I can defend myself. Invunche suggested me earlier to "thicken" my skin. No way! Being sensitive is more like me.

Well, I guess "sensitive" is a nicer label to brand oneself with... As for The Invunche, he scares me as he seems devoid of any normal human passion, 'tho I'm well aware it's an effective way to come across strongly on-line. But, to me, it's borderline disturbing.

[jesus the mexican boi]

This is a poignant diary on dailykos about the personal effect of the film.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/6/172635/1891

[David Ehrenstein]

That story was 100 times more moving than Brokeback Mountain.

[Barmy]

I wonder if Lee Tamahori was turned gay after seeing BBM. His thread was certainly a gazillion times more interesting than this piece of shit.

[The Invunche]

Invunche suggested me earlier to "thicken" my skin. No way! Being sensitive is more like me.

As I've said before, Michael, though you probably weren't listening, I don't understand how you survive the real world if this thread and me are able to influence you daily life in a negative way. With as much shit as the world has to offer this thread surely must pale in comparison.

Be as sensitive as you like, but please don't come crying because you haven't spend enough time with you pets on account of people disagreeing with you.

Oh and by the way unrequited love happens to straight people as well. We hurt just the same.

As for The Invunche, he scares me as he seems devoid of any normal human passion, 'tho I'm well aware it's an effective way to come across strongly on-line. But, to me, it's borderline disturbing.

I'm the boogieman.

[Kirkinson]

Oh and by the way unrequited love happens to straight people as well. We hurt just the same.

Though I'm not gay, I'll venture to guess that the hurt you're talking about is not "just the same" as what Michael is talking about. I have been deeply wounded by unrequited love, I have pined for female friends who didn't love me back, but in Michael's case we're talking about being in love with someone who not only doesn't return those feelings but, as far as anyone knows, is incapable of returning such feelings. In this case, any hope of reciprocation depends either on the chance that the other person is secretly gay or on the erroneous belief that one can change someone's sexual orientation. I think for that kind of hope to survive it generally must reach a little farther than similar hope in a straight situation would. And when that hope is eventually killed, it is not only the final gasp of "Oh, they'll never love me" that a straight person feels, it is additionally accompanied by the realization that any straight person one might have feelings for in the future is also a doomed case. In the situation Michael was talking about above (gay men in their younger years), this can be a very difficult notion to come to grips with.

Though the basic feeling of unrequited love per se likely does cause similar pain in both straights and gays, in the case of a gay man pining for a straight man there is an additional side to it you aren't considering. Would falling in love with a heterosexual girl who didn't love you back feel the same to you as falling in love with a lesbian? That's still not the same situation (a gay man is likely to meet many more straight men than a straight man is to meet lesbians) but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.

Michael, please shoot me down if I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[The Invunche]

Ok my pain is lesser.

[viciousliar]

Ok my pain is lesser.

"Once I had a love, and it was a gas -
Soon turned out to be pain in the ass
Seemed like the real thing only to find
Mucho mistrust, love's gone behind"

Since you go on and on about your "straightness," out of politeness I assume this doesn't apply to you, 'tho I'm sure you down deep inside have a heart of (Gl)ass. :-$ Bogeyman, did you like Boogie Nights? Now, that would have been painful, no?

[Michael]

Kirkinson, you pretty much hit the nail. However that's not the only issue or "heartbreak" that I had to deal with. It also came with many other things such as coming out to my family. When I was 17, my mom wondered why I never had a girlfriend and she thought that I was just being a "late bloomer" or a "loner" but I told her directly with those words - "I'm gay". Even way before I had my first gay kiss. I just knew that I was "different" since I was about 8 years old. My mom fell apart and told everyone in my family the next day. To make this story short: my grandmother with whom I was closest to of all the folks in my life rejected me, refused to see me for two years. My uncle (the ultimate model of the Closeted "Straight".. the same person I caught cruising for men in parks numerous times) and my aunt forbid me to hang out with their children in fear of me transmitting the HIV virus to them and pretty much everyone in the family. Spending holidays with them was out of question. That was in the height in the AIDS scare (mid-80s). And living in a small town didn't help a bit. My mom grew distant with me which was probably the best thing for me so I could focus on finishing high school and..run! And in high school - another version of hell, there was not a day that went by without being called "fag" even though I looked like a lumberjack - always in flannels and jeans. It was all because I didn't want a girlfriend and my only two friends were kind of outside the "league": a straight "punk" sporting the only pink mohawk in the entire town and a Brooklyn Jewish girl who just relocated to the mostly Catholic Italian/Irish town - pretty much like Neil and his friends in Mysterious Skin. For my senior ball, I chose a German exchange student mainly because there was no space for her to fall in love with me.. she was expected to go back home within a month and she also had a boyfriend back home so she was safe to "date". A day before I left for college, after not seeing my grandmother for two years (she lived two blocks away!), she walked over with her best apple pie (my favorite!) and when seeing her face, I ran up to the bathroom, breaking down. My grandmother followed me and held me for an hour, begging me not to throw my life away. I promised her that I would never do that. So twenty years later, here I am with a partner of nearly 9 years. We visit her (now in her 80s) frequently. She has accepted my partner like a son... always sending me cards saying how much she loves him and how he's really the one for me.

Now about that uncle. He's still in the marriage, working as a flight attendant (most likely leading a double life)...I'm still waiting for my aunt to finally "open the book". But that's another story.

Another thing that I had to deal with was to completely erase the "image" of gay men that everyone in my family planted in my head throughout my childhood: a) old lonely, unhappy men with no life b) feminine men, men who wanted to be women c) sexual predators/child molesters. None of that contributed to my self-worth for better so it was quite an enormous haul to get over.

That Brokeback Mountain diary posted earlier on this page is absolutely wonderful. I read it and could completely relate to that guy who wrote it. It is not so unusual for the majority of the gay population.

[David Ehrenstein]

Unrequited love is universal. But unrequited love in a socio-political context where one is expressly forbidden from ever discusssing it with anyone else is unique to the history of gays and lesbians in this culture.

Of course we have had our poets:

http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g001/hart.html

But they too have been coopted by the Heterosexual Dictatorship

[Michael]

Unrequited love is universal. But unrequited love in a socio-political context where one is expressly forbidden from ever discusssing it with anyone else is unique to the history of gays and lesbians in this culture.

You couldn't say it better.

[jesus the mexican boi]

Of course we have had our poets:

http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g001/hart.html

from Lorenz Hart's lyrics "What Can You Do With a Man" from "The Boys from Syracuse," music by Richard Rogers:

I wear my nicest negligee
And find him reading Plato.
Nothing is new with a man.
What can you do with a man?
I shook the tree of life one day
And got a cold Potato.
I'm in a stew with a man.
What can you do with a man?
Where is his sense of duty,
Where is his taste?
Acres and acres of beauty
Going to waste!
He walks me in the woods at night
To find a four-leaf clover.
What can you do with a man like that?

[The Invunche]

And in high school - another version of hell, there was not a day that went by without being called "fag" even though I looked like a lumberjack - always in flannels and jeans.

Have you never seen Monty Python?

[viciousliar]

And in high school - another version of hell, there was not a day that went by without being called "fag" even though I looked like a lumberjack - always in flannels and jeans.

Have you never seen Monty Python?

The Invunche is right - it IS important to have a healthy sense of self-irony...

[Michael]

No, what did I miss?

But I think I know what you're trying to point out. However that was not exactly my point. I never understood why my peers called me "fag" on a daily basis because I was not "out" and I was more masculine than most of the popular straight jocks. Usually in high schools the targets are the guys with "feminine" traits or who fit the "stereotype" or who are open. I guess in my case it was because I never expressed any desire in having a girlfriend (in other words, submitting myself to following the "straight lifestyle"). Many girls asked me out but I denied every request. And thank god I did.

[David Ehrenstein]

A more famous Larry Hart lyric:

"Behold the way our fine-feathered friend
His virtue doth parade
Thou knowest not, my dim-witted friend,
The picture thous has made.
They vacant brow and they tousled hair
Conceal thy good intent.
Thou noble, upright, truthful, sincer
And slightly dopey gent -- you're

My Funny Valentine
Sweet comic Valentine
You make me smile with my heart.
Your looks are laughable,
Unphotographable
Yet you're my fav'rite work of art.
Is your figure less than Greek?
Is your mouth a little weak?
When you open it to speak,
Are you smart?
But don't change a hair for me
Not if you care for me
Stay little Valentine, stay
Each day is Valentine's Day"

[David Ehrenstein]

and leave us not forget ...

Michael Palin: I never wanted to do this job in the first place!
I... I wanted to be...

A LUMBERJACK!

(piano vamp)

Leaping from tree to tree! As they float down the mighty rivers of
British Columbia! With my best girl by my side!
The Larch!
The Pine!
The Giant Redwood tree!
The Sequoia!
The Little Whopping Rule Tree!
We'd sing! Sing! Sing!


Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

CHORUS: He's a lumberjack, and he's okay,
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lava-try.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

Mounties: He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch,
He goes to the lava-try.
On Wednesdays 'e goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.

CHORUS

I cut down trees, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing,
And hang around in bars.

Mounties: He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps,
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around.... In bars???????

CHORUS

I chop down trees, I wear high heels,
Suspendies and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear papa.

Mounties: He cuts down trees, he wears high heels
Suspendies?? and a .... a Bra????

Carol Cleveland: (spoken, raggedly) What's this? Wants to be a *girlie*? Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!

[jesus the mexican boi]

A more famous Larry Hart lyric:

My Funny Valentine
Sweet comic Valentine
You make me smile with my heart.
Your looks are laughable,
Unphotographable
Yet you're my fav'rite work of art.
Is your figure less than Greek?
Is your mouth a little weak?
When you open it to speak,
Are you smart?
But don't change a hair for me
Not if you care for me
Stay little Valentine, stay
Each day is Valentine's Day"

And when Chet Baker sings it, I get all wet.

[viciousliar]

A more famous Larry Hart lyric:

My Funny Valentine
Sweet comic Valentine
You make me smile with my heart.
Your looks are laughable,
Unphotographable
Yet you're my fav'rite work of art.
Is your figure less than Greek?
Is your mouth a little weak?
When you open it to speak,
Are you smart?
But don't change a hair for me
Not if you care for me
Stay little Valentine, stay
Each day is Valentine's Day"

And when Chet Baker sings it, I get all wet.

The best version EVER, and Chet's voice defies being categorized as male or female. I love him.

[Kirkinson]

Ok my pain is lesser.

I was only trying to convince you it was different.