criterionforum.org

The Invunche wrote:The whole idea that the HD DVD camp cares more about the consumer is (like Jobs and the DRM issue) incredibly naïve. Both camps care about one thing and that is profit.

Well said! What strikes me is that some people (not in this forum luckily) got so attached to their favourite player that they take everything, including a marketing strategy, personal.
I think we can all agree that video and audio quality on both the formats are pretty much the same (if we forget the early BR).
Seeing also that they're both big corporations trying to milk as much money as they can from the consumer without adding anything concrete to the medium except the better video quality (java interactive features ? who needs that ? give me free region,get rid of DRM and don't ditch all the extra features already present in the past video incarnations and maybe we can start to talk) I can't really see this animosity.

Thedigitalbits lost all credibility during this latest announcement. Kinda sad really.

Luke M wrote:Thedigitalbits lost all credibility during this latest announcement. Kinda sad really.

I've found their tone on the subject (and it's mostly all they care to talk about) distasteful for some time now. Even as an HD bystander, it's a turnoff. They've just about lost me entirely.

Luke M wrote:Thedigitalbits lost all credibility during this latest announcement. Kinda sad really.

Which part loses credibility? The part where he called up people who were working on Blu ray discs at Paramount to find out that they were blindsided and confused by Paramount's move? The part where he argues that Paramount will cause more potential HD buyers to sit on the sidelines? The part where he says the format war isn't benefiting the public? Bill's been doing this for 10 years and has pretty good contacts and a good sense of the way the wind is blowing.

jedgeco wrote:

Luke M wrote:Thedigitalbits lost all credibility during this latest announcement. Kinda sad really.

Which part loses credibility? The part where he called up people who were working on Blu ray discs at Paramount to find out that they were blindsided and confused by Paramount's move? The part where he argues that Paramount will cause more potential HD buyers to sit on the sidelines? The part where he says the format war isn't benefiting the public? Bill's been doing this for 10 years and has pretty good contacts and a good sense of the way the wind is blowing.

I think Bill's statement might make sense,what I find strange (or maybe jut not professional) is that he's getting so emotional about the whole thing.
I can understand a fanboy getting upset at Microsoft,but being a journalist myself I can't help but think he should keep a bit more distance,
Should Microsoft just leave it as it is and give up on Sony that easily ? It's true that the public won't benefit from this particular move,but then again I don't think high definition is the second coming and definetely it's not going to replace dvd as the next format.

LionelHutz wrote:being a journalist myself I can't help but think he should keep a bit more distance,

first off, i agree. but...

who says that Bill Hunt is anything but a fanboy? Just because some one creates a website and gives himself the title of "editor" doesn't mean anything in this day and age. i have written for several internet outlets and the guys running the sites have little knowledge or care for the craft of journalism or writing. these non-professionals want pieces with attitude that provoke.

While i've always enjoyed the bits for their thorough job, but i wouldn't go so far as to call it journalism.

So it took this long to realize that HD DVD came out of the DVD Forum. Smart guy.

Gigi M. wrote:Paramount's CTO on Why His Studio Is Dumping Blu-ray

Paramount CTO wrote:For another thing, HD DVD came out of the DVD Forum. The DVD Forum is very experienced at developing and managing specs. [HD DVD] was launched in a very stable way, with stable specifications, and they had specified a reference player model, so all players had to be compatible with the HDi interactivity layer, and all players had to be capable of the interactivity. So when we publish titles in the future that have interactivity, we can be assured that every HD DVD player will be able to handle this content.

When you look at what the DVD Forum has specified as required, it's a good set of advanced technologies. You can be assured that that benefit will be available to all consumers, no matter what [player] model they purchased. That speaks to the DVD Forum, that it published specs that were complete and market-ready, and that it didn't need to publish up [and change the specs], as Blu-ray has. To some degree, [such changes are] going to create some legacy issues.

Then he goes on to say

Paramount CTO wrote:PCW: Do you expect capacity needs to change in the future?

Bell: A 45GB disc is under development. [Editors' note: This disc has been in development for two years.] Secondly, compression will become more effective. The number of minutes you get on a disc depends upon how much you can compress a movie. As we gain experience with the new codecs, the ability to compress at high quality will be improved.

Won't adding a third layer to gain the 45gig capacity require a hardware update as opposed to a simple firmware update? Wouldn't this mean that HD DVD could "create some legacy issues" as well? Or am I wrong about this whole thing?

The Invunche wrote:The keyword here is "open letters". Jobs (he does know marketing) did that for one reason only. He wants to show the world he's on the side of the consumer, and if you buy that your naïve as hell. Both Microsoft and Apple support DRM because the content providers demand it.

I fully understand your cynicism, but lets stick to facts -- a few months after Jobs' letter EMI announced they were offering their entire catalog for DRM free sales. Universal just announced a major no DRM trial. All the indies already sell without DRM. Many observers believe, that the writing is on the wall, and music DRM is going bye-bye within 12 months. My bet is that the last holdout will be Sony.

The reason that Apple is more than happy to get rid of DRM is that iPod & iTunes are beating the pants off the competition not because of any lock-in, but because they have a superior product and marketing and no amount of Zunes or "Plays For Sure" music stores are going to change that.

Note also that iTunes is now selling DRM free tracks and Microsoft's Zune store is not.

The Invunche wrote:

Ted Todorov wrote:And if you do care about codecs and containers a MacMini will play all of them just fine -- except for DRMed Windows media -- i.e. that very same lock in...

With what kind of media center interface does the Mini have? Can you stuff a tuner card into a Mini? Does it have an electronic program guide? Can you add a Blu-ray or HD DVD drive? Admittedly these issues aren't directly related to the HD download issue, but why would the consumer chose a platform that doesn't support the whole range features when he can get one that does?

The MacMini has FrontRow, which under Leopard looks very similar to the AppleTV interface. It will play DVDs ripped as VIDEO_TS or as MPEG4/H.264

If you've held a Mini you'd know that "stuffing a tuner card" in it is a pretty funny suggestion. Of course you don't need to -- Elgato offers a variety of external tuner dongles with ethernet, USB or FireWire interfaces that are powered by its excellent EyeTV software and TitanTV free electronic program guide. You can certainly attach an external BD or HD drive to at this point that makes no sense -- you are better off getting a standalone player that is being subsidized by Microsoft, Toshiba or Sony. There are no features HTPC related features worth having that a Mac Mini doesn't support minus that "tedious setup" on the Windows Media Center side.

Well, I got an HD-DVD player for my birthday, and I'm thrilled. Got Casino and Planet Earth and they look incredible. Now if only Universal would get some of those Hitchcock classics on HD I would be very, very happy.

But I need your help. I don't know what DVDs to pick for the 5 free HD-DVD promotion. Are any of these films worth viewing?

I have to pick one each from five categories.
Category A: Apollo 13, Seabiscuit, The Chronicles of Riddick (I'm leaning toward Seabiscuit)

Category B includes Casablance, so that's a no-brainer.

Category C: Four Brothers, Lara Croft:Tomb Raider, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (help!)

Category D: The Rundown, Blazing Saddles, U2 Rattle and Hum (here I'll probably go for the U2 for nostalgia sake-- not sure if Blazing Saddles will still hold up)

Category E: U-571, The Perfect Storm, We Were Soldiers (help!)

Are any of the movies in categories C and E worth viewing at all?

Well, here's what I picked for my 5 free:

Category A: Seabiscuit - Probably would've taken Apollo 13 if I didn't already own the new special edition on DVD

Category B: I actually have Casablanca on its way to me via a trade so I chose Dukes of Hazzard. You heard me I picked HD Jessica Simpson over Keanu Reeves!

Category C: I picked Sky Captain because I didn't own it on DVD. It was either that or Four Brothers and there's only so much of a Ghettoized Marky Mark I can take.

Category D: I'm a U2 fan so that was easy. Plus Blazing Saddles is an option if you pick up a Blu-Ray player.

Category E: The Perfect Storm. I didn't care much for U-571 and We Were Soldiers may be the worst war movie I've ever suffered through.

Those are my picks and I'm sticking to it!!

Ted Todorov wrote:I fully understand your cynicism, but lets stick to facts -- a few months after Jobs' letter EMI announced they were offering their entire catalog for DRM free sales. Universal just announced a major no DRM trial. All the indies already sell without DRM. Many observers believe, that the writing is on the wall, and music DRM is going bye-bye within 12 months. My bet is that the last holdout will be Sony.

Yes, let's stick to facts. There's no proof Jobs did anything but jump on the bandwagon. Universal's no-DRM trial is done outside iTunes. EMI's catalogue is to be available at the Zune store a well.

Ted Todorov wrote:The reason that Apple is more than happy to get rid of DRM is that iPod & iTunes are beating the pants off the competition not because of any lock-in, but because they have a superior product and marketing and no amount of Zunes or "Plays For Sure" music stores are going to change that.

No, the reason Apple is happy to get rid of DRM is that consumers are tuning against it.

Ted Todorov wrote:Note also that iTunes is now selling DRM free tracks and Microsoft's Zune store is not.

Already answered.

Ted Todorov wrote:The MacMini has FrontRow, which under Leopard looks very similar to the AppleTV interface. It will play DVDs ripped as VIDEO_TS or as MPEG4/H.264

If you've held a Mini you'd know that "stuffing a tuner card" in it is a pretty funny suggestion. Of course you don't need to -- Elgato offers a variety of external tuner dongles with ethernet, USB or FireWire interfaces that are powered by its excellent EyeTV software and TitanTV free electronic program guide. You can certainly attach an external BD or HD drive to at this point that makes no sense -- you are better off getting a standalone player that is being subsidized by Microsoft, Toshiba or Sony. There are no features HTPC related features worth having that a Mac Mini doesn't support minus that "tedious setup" on the Windows Media Center side.

I thought Apple was all about simplicity and elegance. Now you have to plug in extra hardware and use different software for different media center functionality. I doubt that's going convince many consumers. And the Mini isn't that much cheaper (considering what you get for your money) than the prebuilt Windows Media Machines you can buy here in Europe (I don't know the US market). These machines have more powerful hardware plus tuner cards and whatever you need for the full integrated media experience. Some of them are even passively cooled and some about the size of a Mini.

denti alligator wrote:Well, I got an HD-DVD player for my birthday, and I'm thrilled. Got Casino and Planet Earth and they look incredible. Now if only Universal would get some of those Hitchcock classics on HD I would be very, very happy.

But I need your help. I don't know what DVDs to pick for the 5 free HD-DVD promotion. Are any of these films worth viewing?

I have to pick one each from five categories.
Category A: Apollo 13, Seabiscuit, The Chronicles of Riddick (I'm leaning toward Seabiscuit)

Category B includes Casablance, so that's a no-brainer.

Category C: Four Brothers, Lara Croft:Tomb Raider, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (help!)

Category D: The Rundown, Blazing Saddles, U2 Rattle and Hum (here I'll probably go for the U2 for nostalgia sake-- not sure if Blazing Saddles will still hold up)

Category E: U-571, The Perfect Storm, We Were Soldiers (help!)

Are any of the movies in categories C and E worth viewing at all?

C: Four Brothers is a good movie, not great, but lightyears ahead of sky captain or tomb raider.

E: I'd say We were soldiers. It's got an incredible soundtrack for HD-DVD, and I liked the film a lot.

the rest of your choices are the ones I'd make too, except I might go for The Rundown since it's a pretty funny movie and U2's rattle and hum looks no better in HD than the DVD did to me.

The Invunche wrote:

Ted Todorov wrote:I fully understand your cynicism, but lets stick to facts -- a few months after Jobs' letter EMI announced they were offering their entire catalog for DRM free sales. Universal just announced a major no DRM trial. All the indies already sell without DRM. Many observers believe, that the writing is on the wall, and music DRM is going bye-bye within 12 months. My bet is that the last holdout will be Sony.

Yes, let's stick to facts. There's no proof Jobs did anything but jump on the bandwagon. Universal's no-DRM trial is done outside iTunes. EMI's catalogue is to be available at the Zune store a well.

If you read Stephen Levy's The Perfect Thing (on the history of iTunes/iPod) Jobs was telling the record labels that DRM was a bad idea from the word go. He had to fight long and hard to get them to agree to DRM as non-draconian as the one that came with the iTunes store, as opposed to the record label sponsored stores that preceded iTunes, which had awful consumer hating DRM and naturally went nowhere.

Jobs letter to the labels was month before EMI finally agreed to do it. If that is climbing on the bandwagon please explain where that bandwagon was. Yes, activist consumers have been demanding DRM free music for a long time, but certainly no one in the industry. Apple would LOVE to have Universal's DRM free tracks on iTunes -- Universal isn't offering them because that are desperate to screw Apple. The record labels never got over the fact that their own stores went down the drain, and to this day they can't seem to figure out why consumers prefer iTunes (well the geniuses at Universal, anyway). They despise that someone other than them has power and control.

So far as your arguments that MacMini somehow is less user friendly than Windows Media Center -- please. You obviously haven't tried it, the fact is it IS cheaper, it is smaller, quieter, more elegant, better and is WAY friendlier. In any event the average person is NOT going to be using a computer for DVR functionality -- the cable company gives them one -- which is why Tivo with its GREAT products is not a financially successful company. I am not at all arguing that Minis will somehow take over the world -- they won't. I was just addressing your insinuations that the Minis don't do this or that. (Amongst other things they WILL run Windows Media Center just fine, and to this day remain the best (quality/price) hardware you can run WMC (XP or Vista) on).

What I am arguing is that HD downloads will end up doing better than HD media, and that Apple is the company in the best position to take advantage of that. Arguing this further is perhaps fun but not useful -- the future will tell. Five years from now, maybe Blu-ray rules the world, maybe Microsoft downloads rule, maybe Netflix or Google or someone we've never heard of does, or maybe Apple. One or both of us will be wrong. We can revisit it then.

And even though Jobs didn't like DRM he had to accept it in order to get content for iTunes. Which is exactly what Microsoft has been doing. Neither company likes DRM but when it's about making money they sure have no problems using it. Apple is no more moral than Microsoft.

Ted Todorov wrote:So far as your arguments that MacMini somehow is less user friendly than Windows Media Center -- please.

Actually, I never said that. My point was that the solution with both hardware and software add-ons to achieve basic media center functionality is not simple or elegant, which is usually two adjectives Apple likes to use. To this day Apple doesn't sell a piece of software/service that delivers what Windows Media Center does, and I have no idea why they don't work a little harder in this field. The half-assed solutions will of course please the Apple crowd but wont impress the rest. Now if Apple really tried I'm sure they could come up with something which could easily compete with Microsoft. So far it has only been crippleware and half solutions.

Ted Todorov wrote:What I am arguing is that HD downloads will end up doing better than HD media, and that Apple is the company in the best position to take advantage of that. Arguing this further is perhaps fun but not useful -- the future will tell. Five years from now, maybe Blu-ray rules the world, maybe Microsoft downloads rule, maybe Netflix or Google or someone we've never heard of does, or maybe Apple. One or both of us will be wrong. We can revisit it then.

Actually I can't be wrong because I have made no predictions as to who will succeed in HD downloads. All I and other people are arguing is that Microsoft is keeping the format war alive because they think they have a change at making loads of money from HD downloads.

The Invunche wrote:And even though Jobs didn't like DRM he had to accept it in order to get content for iTunes. Which is exactly what Microsoft has been doing. Neither company likes DRM but when it's about making money they sure have no problems using it. Apple is no more moral than Microsoft.

Oh come on -- this is just absurd. Microsoft loves DRM. Look at their own products -- Microsoft DRMs its shrinkwrapped Windows releases up the wazoo with activation keys and all kinds of nonsense. Apple's OS releases have no DRM, activation keys or anything. You can freely copy them and install on as many computers as you want. It is strictly on the honor system. (And yes, Apple derives a quite a bit of their income from software sales, so it does matter to them).

I am not arguing that Apple is somehow moral. They are a money making business. As a person, Bill Gates is arguably way more moral than Steve Jobs -- he is the worlds most generous philanthropist. Jobs is an asshole. But when it comes to DRM, equating Apple to Microsoft is beyond ridiculous.

Ted Todorov wrote:Oh come on -- this is just absurd. Microsoft loves DRM. Look at their own products -- Microsoft DRMs its shrinkwrapped Windows releases up the wazoo with activation keys and all kinds of nonsense. Apple's OS releases have no DRM, activation keys or anything. You can freely copy them and install on as many computers as you want. It is strictly on the honor system. (And yes, Apple derives a quite a bit of their income from software sales, so it does matter to them).

LOL. Of course you can install Apple's OS on as many machines you want. It doesn't run on anything but Apple machines and they all come with the OS anyway. Microsoft's OS runs on pretty much every possible hardware combination including Apple's. Windows has one (1) activation code which can only ever be a problem if you haven't paid for it. The DRM built into Vista is again about bowing to content provider demands.

Warner's high-def exec, Steven Nickerson, has left the company, leading to speculation that WB will go exclusive, one way or the other. Nickerson is described as "a passionate cheerleader for the studio's dual-format stance." Of course, that could mean any of three things:

1. He believes in format neutrality as an inherently good position for WB;
2. He wanted WB to release HD but the company wants to do BD, so he fought for neutrality as the next best alternative to what he wanted; or
3. Vise versa of number 2.

Also, Nickerson came from Toshiba, so make of that what you will.

jedgeco wrote: Nickerson is described as "a passionate cheerleader for the studio's dual-format stance."

Nickerson was anything BUT passionated about duality (his Toshiba background has been discussed quite rigorously around the Web). In fact this article seems to be walking the same line which Paramount's Bell did in his recently published interview when he stated that Microsoft did not provide the 150K in "sponsorship" money. There are Paramount officials on record on another forum confirming precisely the opposite: MS did pay off a few of the big heads.

As to Nickerson's persona, you are absolutely correct, his departure could mean a number of things. Yet, if there is anything that is certain at this point it is that one of the red-est execs in WB is now gone.

The rest...the future will tell!

Pro-B

The Invunche wrote:Microsoft's OS runs on pretty much every possible hardware combination including Apple's.

...provided the Apple computer was manufactured after January 2006.

And provided the owner of said Apple computer is prepared to fork out an eye-watering sum for the full version of Windows XP (which I believe is the minimum setup that will actually work).

And given that I have no interest in installing Windows for any other reason, that's a pretty hefty premium to pay for being able to get round Microsoft's DRM.

Thanks for missing the point.

pro-bassoonist wrote:Yet, if there is anything that is certain at this point it is that one of the red-est execs in WB is now gone.

If that's the case, it probably doesn't bode well for HD if a big WB cheerleader is gone. I doubt either side could pay off WB to go exclusive, since WB's chuck of the home video market would make it prohibitively expensive.

I was struck by this comment that was buried in a Times article on HDTV sales yesterday:

Retailers would also like to see [customers purchasing HDTVs] buy a new high-definition DVD player that makes movies on an HDTV especially vibrant — though the format war between companies making Blu-ray and HD DVD players has stymied sales, said James L. McQuivey, principal analyst at Forrester Research.

“The high-definition DVD format war must end by 2008 if retailers are going to sell movie discs and players,â€

Warner hasn't changed their neutral stance. As for this war, I have to recommend everyone buy into both formats.

Sitting out is fine as long as you don't plan on purchasing any new DVDs that are also available in HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. Why buy the Kubrick DVDs when you'll want to upgrade in the future? And you will, the image quality is significantly better.

There's also rumors of Universal and Warner releasing combo discs only. If that's the case retailers will make room.

Luke M wrote:As for this war, I have to recommend everyone buy into both formats. .

I firmly disagree with such a comment (Popcorn Tree?)!

In fact, a month or so ago I specifically wrote at DVDTALK that we have reached "the point" where any further prolongation of this war would hurt the credibility of the Hi-Def format(s). My comment was greeted with sarcasm and statements such as "what is it about this point, etc, etc"...and "look how far down the prices have gone", etc. The reality is that there is such a powerful silent majority of consumers who are not likely to purchase a Hi-Def player (let alone two as you suggest) until a winner emerges that any further delay will only doom the two current rivals.
Recent events, regardless of what side of the fence you peek through, have proven precisely that! Consumers are confused, retailers are confused, and I am quite certain the studios are as well.

I have chosen my format. It is my conviction that only one format can be adopted by the masses. As it is my conviction that a niche-status for the Hi-Def format(s) will all along hurt those of us who feel passionate about it/them.

Ciao,
Pro-B