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Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:54 pm
by Mr Sausage
I have vague memories of Saruman unwittingly being poisoned by Sauron through the use of that crystal ball.
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:26 pm
by Brian C
Michael Kerpan wrote:Saruman never "turned towards" Sauron -- he thought he could out-Sauron Sauron. So he is a third, complicating force. He is an enemy of the good guys -- but not as an "ally" of Sauron but as a competitor.
It’s a little more complicated than this - he was allied with Sauron, even if, as you say, he was also plotting against him. For example, the orcs that captured Merry and Pippin were a team made up of both Mordor orcs and Saruman’s own. And the hobbits were to be delivered to Sauron after being brought to Orthanc - Pippin learns this when he looks into the palantir after Orthanc falls.
The way I’d put it is that he allied with Mordor in the war against Gondor and especially Rohan, with the hope that he’d find the Ring first and then use it to seize power from Sauron.
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:11 pm
by Michael Kerpan
I wouldn't disagree with that. My point is that he has not really "turned towards Sauron" -- rather he is foolish enough to think that he can outwit and overthrow Sauron. And he actually doesn't realize that Sauron surely knows what he is up to. How hath the mighty fallen!
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:17 pm
by FrauBlucher
Thanks for the input. I know turned towards Sauron was kind of clumsy. I should’ve said, to borrow a phrase from another franchise, Saruman “went to the dark side.”
I wish Jackson somehow explained that either in LOTR or The Hobbit films.
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:59 pm
by Michael Kerpan
I bailed on Jackson almost as soon as the Hobbits left the Shire in the first film. I just didn't like hardly anything beyond that point (and tried to put myself to sleep -- as I was stuck there with my wife and children). I let them go to subsequent installments without my drag of a presence. (Instead I re-read the series for the first time in a good while).
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:58 pm
by hearthesilence
Michael Kerpan wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:59 pm
I bailed on Jackson almost as soon as the Hobbits left the Shire in the first film. I just didn't like hardly anything beyond that point (and tried to put myself to sleep -- as I was stuck there with my wife and children). I let them go to subsequent installments without my drag of a presence. (Instead I re-read the series for the first time in a good while).
I remember when those first three movies were huge events - I went to the opening weekends for all three and it seemed like everyone I knew from school were there. So it's kind of strange how their current presence in pop culture doesn't feel nearly as strong as I would've predicted. I haven't watched the later stuff - they obviously have a huge audience, but I never really hear anybody talk about any of the films anymore IRL. Maybe it's just a product of transitioning into adulthood, but I still know plenty of people who will endlessly discuss Star Wars. As for Jackson's first
LOTR films, as much as I enjoyed them then, they don't do much for me now. It's an uneven slog, with some moments that are still rousing but also stuff that seems too silly even though I was able to go along with it before without reservation. I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but as with most fantasy tales now, they paradoxically don't make an impression unless they tap into reality. I want to say the films work best when I think about them as a reflection of what it was like to live in Britain through WWII, as if it was a child's way of processing the horrific reality they were living in without being too overwhelmed or traumatized by it.
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:12 pm
by Michael Kerpan
> they paradoxically don't make an impression unless they tap into reality.
I think that's why the initial scenes in the Shire seemed promising -- and almost everything after that fell flat. I remember being especially disappointed at how weird and ugly Lothlorien was.
Re: The Lord of the Rings Trilogy
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:56 pm
by ford
hearthesilence wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:58 pm
Michael Kerpan wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:59 pm
I bailed on Jackson almost as soon as the Hobbits left the Shire in the first film. I just didn't like hardly anything beyond that point (and tried to put myself to sleep -- as I was stuck there with my wife and children). I let them go to subsequent installments without my drag of a presence. (Instead I re-read the series for the first time in a good while).
I remember when those first three movies were huge events - I went to the opening weekends for all three and it seemed like everyone I knew from school were there. So it's kind of strange how their current presence in pop culture doesn't feel nearly as strong as I would've predicted. I haven't watched the later stuff - they obviously have a huge audience, but I never really hear anybody talk about any of the films anymore IRL. Maybe it's just a product of transitioning into adulthood, but I still know plenty of people who will endlessly discuss Star Wars. As for Jackson's first
LOTR films, as much as I enjoyed them then, they don't do much for me now. It's an uneven slog, with some moments that are still rousing but also stuff that seems too silly even though I was able to go along with it before without reservation. I can't remember if I mentioned it before, but as with most fantasy tales now, they paradoxically don't make an impression unless they tap into reality. I want to say the films work best when I think about them as a reflection of what it was like to live in Britain through WWII, as if it was a child's way of processing the horrific reality they were living in without being too overwhelmed or traumatized by it.
We forget how amazing those huge CGI battles looked back then. The thing is, that's been done a gazillion time since.
