Re: Roman Polanski Arrested
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:28 am
Correct me if I misread somewhere that ,she was a model too?
I thought I was being cynical for thinking that a lengthy, 2-paragraph "apology" was perhaps not very sincere. But your helpful cultural insight and innuendo just keep coming.Cinephrenic wrote:Correct me if I misread somewhere that ,she was a model too?
Yes, yes, you're talking about boyfriend/girlfriend situations-- where teens are having sex with one another and-- too dumb horny and careless to use condoms-- a baby pops out. That has no relevance to an adult taking a child by subterfuge, force and violence, as in Polanski, and is not something worth googling here.Ted Todorov wrote:You are correct on the Polanski case -- there was no pregnancy.HerrSchreck wrote:What are you basing this on-- do you actually have any statistics to support this, and what is the source for these? I'd also be interested to know what percentage of underage mothers of children produced by rape bore their children, as opposed to those who bore them. Of course these scenarios don't apply in this case, since Polanski forced anal sex upon the girl and there was no resulting pregnancy (if I'm not misinformed).
I was offering up the cases of pregnant teens because that is one area in statistics where the books can't be cooked (along with the murder rate -- statistics on rape, statutory or otherwise OTOH are notoriously unreliable): if the girl was pregnant below a certain age, rape occurred. Period.
Teen pregnancy stats: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If statutory rapists were being jailed, there would be hundreds of thousands of them in jail every year for just those rapes that resulted in pregnancies. Obviously there aren't. I'm too lazy to google for social services approaches to under age of consent teen pregnancies but there were reports in the usual media sources (The Economist, NY Times, New Yorker, NPR) about infighting with those who wanted the fathers on the hook for child support (monetary/child rearing responsibilities) prevailing over those calling for criminal sanction. If you are genuinely interested, I suspect you can use "the google" just as well as I can.
The Manson killings, while sensational and shocking, wouldn't even rank as the worst mass murders committed this week. I know we all exaggerate to make a point, but don't let the American media infect your brain.tartarlamb wrote: I don't care if Polanski serves time, my admiration for his films and my sympathies for him as the victim of two of the most terrible mass murders of the 20th century notwithstanding.
Not really the substantial portion of what I was saying, but thanks for splitting the hair and condescending to give me advice about how not to poison my brain.Lemmy Caution wrote:The Manson killings, while sensational and shocking, wouldn't even rank as the worst mass murders committed this week. I know we all exaggerate to make a point, but don't let the American media infect your brain.
Why would people who believes in Jackson's innocence be in "absolute denial"? The first allegations brought against him in '93 was obviously the work of a consistent failure of a man who sought to destroy Jackson's reputation because of his jealousy over Jackson's friendship with his son and his wife. It was known early on that the boy denied any wrong-doing on Jackson's part until he was drugged by his father and changed his story. If you're not familiar with the details there is October 1994 GQ article by Mary A. Fischer entitled "Was Michael Jackson Framed? The Untold Story": http://www.buttonmonkey.com/misc/maryfischer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. All of this was public knowledge long before he was accused and taken to court in 2005 by a family with a long track record of extortion. I'm not sure if I'm misreading you bu are you saying that his background should have led people to naturally suspect he was a pedophile? His father's abuse struck me as evidence of the complete opposite. Jackson suffered from arrested development; a natural product of his history of parental abuse (Jackson's professional psychiatric evaluations came to the same conclusion regarding his state of mind and found nothing that would suggest pedophilia). My natural reaction at the time was that children don't usually molest their play buddies. His current and previous accusers took advantage of a certain naivete among the general public who used Jackson as a scapegoat for their own prejudices against someone who was "weird," "effeminate," and refused to grow up. If they didn't like his persona then they were quite content to find a justification for their prejudice, no matter how absurdly unlikely the pedophilia accusations were in the first place. No doubt the mass media played in a roll in replacing analysis of the evidence with pure sensationalism. When Jackson was found not guilty you could almost sense the disappointment in many circles despite an open-and-shut case. This has nothing in common with the Polanski case. Polanski is a self-confessed rapist. What I don't understand is how any European nation could have refused to extradite him until now.bigP wrote:At the height of the trial, I think the case was very similar if I remember rightly. I know it greatly divided fans into sections of those that turned their back on him completely and believed he was guilty, those in absolute denial with "Michael is innocent" cards waving around outside the court and his home throughout, and those that did connect his background to the case and allowed that knowledge to help understand why a person would do what he was accused of. I'm not sure if this would have been the same split (or in the same numbers) if Jackson confessed, but I would be very surprised if there was not a legion following him with their support still, who did (in some small part) excuse the crime for his horrible history.
This is the single most repugnant thing I have ever read on this board. I'd expect to hear someone spouting something like this in a high security prison cell or a message board for right-wing extremism. Not here.Cinephrenic wrote:True, but it's not like he raped a 8 year old. The bitch knew what she was up to and Polanski made some irresponsible choices as an adult. They chasing him like a international fugitive on the run for murder. Give me a break..
I don't know how many ways you can rephrase "blame the victim." I don't think child marriage is an institution that ought to be emulated, and yes, I am telling you that a 13 year old girl is too young to understand what is going on, especially since this young girl said "no" repeatedly. You can argue whether or not this girl is "innocent," but that fact is, its not her innocence that's in question. She is a victim, not a criminal.Cinephrenic wrote:I'm not defending Polanski. I'm intelligent enough to seperate his personal life and his films. Honestly, I don't give a shit if he goes to jail (as it will change anything). I'm not going to change my opinion just because I upset a few members on here. I just apologized for the harseness. I'm just not too sensative to her situation. I don't find her as innocent as many want to make her. If he married her with her parents consent, it wouldn't have been pedophilia, right? You telling me a 13 year old is too small to make out what sex is? Maybe she can't run for politics, but sex? We as Americans try children as adults when it comes to murder, no?
That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Right-wing extremism? Do you even know what you are talking about? You think i'm defending adults to have sex with minors? Is that what you got out of my post? Any scientist can tell you that there is a clear distinction between a 8 year old and a 13 year old teenager. First of all, she is at a age to have children and too have sex biologically. Socially and culturally, we have consequences for young women to have sex, no doubt. I'm not saying what Polanski did was good or he was a victim, but i'm also saying that she isn't innocent either. Just because she is legally a child, we should parade behind her and blame sexual offenders only? Parents don't have any responsibility?This is the single most repugnant thing I have ever read on this board. I'd expect to hear someone spouting something like this in a high security prison cell or a message board for right-wing extremism. Not here.
She said no to Polanski's advances.Cinephrenic wrote:I think people are confusing the distinction between rape and satutory rape. Not all Rape is rape. My understanding of the trial was not about rape, but having sex with a minor (satutory rape)?
True as a general philosophical argument, but it's pretty clear-cut here. Victim was 13 = statutory rape. Victim said no (repeatedly) = actual rape.david hare wrote:So - draws breath - rape is not a single or simple concept.
I find the use of the term "ephebophile" here confusing. For the ancient Greeks, an ephebe (ephebos) was specifically someone between the ages of 18 and 20, and therefore no longer engaged in pederastic relationships (as the younger member, at least). In what context is this distinction made? Is the term legal, or historical, ect.? Also, am I right to assume that "sexually mature" means having gone through puberty?David Hare wrote:Anyway, can we perhaps draw a distinction between pedo- and ephebophilia - the latter refers to pre-legal teens (which can indeed be 12 or 13 in some cultures) but sexually mature kids who were sexually admired by - for instance - the Ancient Greeks, generally the men for the boys. There IS a distinction between early teens and sub teens and it must be and usually is discerned in criminal trials and sentencing.
What's interesting is how baldly John Huston plays that character, especially considering Polanski's troubles and Huston's own suspected relation to the Black Dahlia case.Mr Sheldrake wrote:Whenever the Polanski case comes up, with all the condemnation and defending that arises, I'm always reminded of the Noah Cross quote, in a Polanski movie no less -
"You see, Mr. Gitts, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of ANYTHING. "
The would-be populist appeal to ‘the people’ of ‘every state’ here is pretty obnoxious. I’m not sure that what’s happening now really serves the interests of any people, except those who think that Polanski is ‘scum’ and that he ‘deserves’ to rot in jail. Those people may well be in the right, but I find myself completely unmoved at the thought of their being disappointed. And it’s clear – because this is the point Harding is addressing – that there are quite a few people being done an active disservice by the revival of this case, including Polanski’s and his victim’s families. (I can’t find out how old Geimer’s kids or Elvis Polanski are, but Polanski’s daughter is sixteen.) So this stuff about ‘the people’ seems like bullshit to me.Kate Harding wrote:But what of the now-45-year-old victim, who received a settlement from Polanski in a civil case, saying she'd like to see the charges dropped? Shouldn't we be honoring her wishes above all else?
In a word, no. At least, not entirely. I happen to believe we should honor her desire not to be the subject of a media circus, which is why I haven't named her here, even though she chose to make her identity public long ago. But as for dropping the charges, Fecke said it quite well: “I understand the victim's feelings on this. And I sympathize, I do. But for good or ill, the justice system doesn't work on behalf of victims; it works on behalf of justice.â€
It works on behalf of the people, in fact -- the people whose laws in every state make it clear that both child rape and fleeing prosecution are serious crimes. The point is not to keep 76-year-old Polanski off the streets or help his victim feel safe. The point is that drugging and raping a child, then leaving the country before you can be sentenced for it, is behavior our society should not -- and at least in theory, does not -- tolerate, no matter how famous, wealthy or well-connected you are, no matter how old you were when you finally got caught, no matter what your victim says about it now, no matter how mature she looked at 13, no matter how pushy her mother was, and no matter how many really swell movies you've made.
Well we certainly wouldn't be debating it at all here on a film forum butMyNameCriterionForum wrote:Maybe "Joe the Plumber"jt wrote:Would people be so willing to defend him if he was a plumber?
"Why would people who believes in Jackson's innocence be in "absolute denial"?" Sorry that is noted. Badly phrased. What I meant was during the court case there were allegations put forth and there were ardent supporters who did not believe one word said against Jackson.Orphic Lycidas wrote:Why would people who believes in Jackson's innocence be in "absolute denial"? The first allegations brought against him in '93 was obviously the work of a consistent failure of a man who sought to destroy Jackson's reputation because of his jealousy over Jackson's friendship with his son and his wife. It was known early on that the boy denied any wrong-doing on Jackson's part until he was drugged by his father and changed his story. If you're not familiar with the details there is October 1994 GQ article by Mary A. Fischer entitled "Was Michael Jackson Framed? The Untold Story": http://www.buttonmonkey.com/misc/maryfischer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. All of this was public knowledge long before he was accused and taken to court in 2005 by a family with a long track record of extortion. I'm not sure if I'm misreading you bu are you saying that his background should have led people to naturally suspect he was a pedophile? His father's abuse struck me as evidence of the complete opposite. Jackson suffered from arrested development; a natural product of his history of parental abuse (Jackson's professional psychiatric evaluations came to the same conclusion regarding his state of mind and found nothing that would suggest pedophilia). My natural reaction at the time was that children don't usually molest their play buddies. His current and previous accusers took advantage of a certain naivete among the general public who used Jackson as a scapegoat for their own prejudices against someone who was "weird," "effeminate," and refused to grow up. If they didn't like his persona then they were quite content to find a justification for their prejudice, no matter how absurdly unlikely the pedophilia accusations were in the first place. No doubt the mass media played in a roll in replacing analysis of the evidence with pure sensationalism. When Jackson was found not guilty you could almost sense the disappointment in many circles despite an open-and-shut case. This has nothing in common with the Polanski case. Polanski is a self-confessed rapist. What I don't understand is how any European nation could have refused to extradite him until now.bigP wrote:At the height of the trial, I think the case was very similar if I remember rightly. I know it greatly divided fans into sections of those that turned their back on him completely and believed he was guilty, those in absolute denial with "Michael is innocent" cards waving around outside the court and his home throughout, and those that did connect his background to the case and allowed that knowledge to help understand why a person would do what he was accused of. I'm not sure if this would have been the same split (or in the same numbers) if Jackson confessed, but I would be very surprised if there was not a legion following him with their support still, who did (in some small part) excuse the crime for his horrible history.
Later OSCAR WILDE is in the witness box to be cross examined by EDWARD CARSON, his classmate from Trinity College Dublin, who retains a distinct middle class Irish accent, in contrast with the former’s more anglicised, yet still discernibly Irish, tones.
EDWARD CARSON
You stated that your age was thirty-nine. I think you are over forty. You were born on the 16th of October, 1854?
EDWARD CARSON holds up a copy of his birth certificate.
OSCAR WILDE
I have no wish to pose as being young. You have my certificate and that settles the matter.
EDWARD CARSON
But, being born in 1854 makes you more than forty.
OSCAR WILDE
(sighing)
Ah! Very well.
CUT TO:
Later.
EDWARD CARSON
(picking up a magazine)
Listen sir, to what you describe as ‘Phrases and Philosophies for the Use of the Young’. ‘Wickedness is a myth invented by good people to account for the curious attractiveness of others.’ You think that true?
OSCAR WILDE
I rarely think anything I write is true.
EDWARD CARSON
‘Pleasure is the only thing one should live for.’?
OSCAR WILDE
I think the realisation of oneself is the prime aim of life, and to realise oneself through pleasure is finer than to do so through pain. I am on that point, entirely on the side of the ancients - the Greeks. It is a pagan idea.
EDWARD CARSON
‘If one tells the truth, one is sure, sooner or later to be found out.’?
OSCAR WILDE
That is a pleasing paradox, but I do not set very high store by it as an axiom.
EDWARD CARSON
Is it good for the young?
OSCAR WILDE
Anything is good that stimulates thought at whatever age.
CUT TO:
Later EDWARD CARSON brings up ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray.
EDWARD CARSON
I quote from ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’. ‘I quite admit I adored you madly, extravagantly, absurdly. I wanted to have you all to myself’. What do you say to that? Have you ever adored a young man madly?
OSCAR WILDE
No, not madly. I prefer love - that is, a higher form...
EDWARD CARSON
Never mind about that. Let us keep down to the level we are at now.
OSCAR WILDE
I have never given adoration to anybody except myself.
(laughter)
EDWARD CARSON
I supposed you think that a very smart thing?
OSCAR WILDE
Not at all.
EDWARD CARSON
‘I adored you extravagantly.’
OSCAR WILDE
Do you mean financially?
EDWARD CARSON
Oh yes, financially! Do you think we are talking about finance?
OSCAR WILDE
I do not know what you are talking about.
EDWARD CARSON
Well I hope I shall make myself very plain before I have done.
CUT TO:
Later EDWARD CARSON raises the matter of a letter to Lord ALFRED DOUGLAS.
EDWARD CARSON (CONT’D)
A letter to Lord Alfred Douglas. ‘My own Boy, Your sonnet is quite lovely, and it is a marvel that those red rose-leaf lips of yours should have been made no less for the music of song than for the madness of kisses’. Why should a man your age address a boy nearly twenty years younger as ‘My own Boy’?
OSCAR WILD
I was fond of him. I have always been fond of him.
EDWARD CARSON
Do you adore him?
OSCAR WILDE
No, but I have always liked him. I think it is a beautiful letter. It is a poem. I was not writing an ordinary letter. You might as well cross examine me as to whether ‘King Lear’ or a sonnet of Shakespeare was proper.
EDWARD CARSON
Apart from art, Mr Wilde?
OSCAR WILDE
I cannot answer apart from art.
EDWARD CARSON
Suppose a man who was not an artist had written this letter, would you say it was a proper letter?
OSCAR WILDE
A man who was not an artist could not have written that letter.
EDWARD CARSON
Why?
OSCAR WILDE
Because nobody but an artist could write it. He certainly could not write the language unless he were a man of letters.
EDWARD CARSON
I can suggest, for the sake of your reputation, that there is nothing very wonderful in this ‘red rose-leaf lips of yours’?
OSCAR WILDE
A great deal depends on the way it is read.
EDWARD CARSON
‘Your slim gilt soul walks between passion and poetry.’ Is that a beautiful phrase?
OSCAR WILDE
Not as you read it, Mr Carson. You read it very badly.
EDWARD CARSON
(angrily)
I do not profess to be an artist, and when I hear you give evidence, I am glad I am not.
This brings OSCAR WILDE’s Counsel, EDWARD CLARKE QC, to his feet.
EDWARD CLARKE
I do not think my learned friend should talk like that.
(and to WILDE)
Pray do not criticise my learned friend’s reading again.
EDWARD CARSON resumes.
EDWARD CARSON
Is that an exceptional letter?
EDWARD CLARKE
It is unique. I should say.
Laughter.
EDWARD CARSON
Was that your ordinary way of correspondence?
OSCAR WILDE
Everything I wrote is extraordinary. I do not pose as ordinary, great heavens.
CUT TO:
EDWARD CARSON then moves onto the subject of young men. Throughout the jury develop a growing feeling of distaste.
EDWARD CARSON
How many young men did this man Taylor introduce to you?
OSCAR WILDE
About five.
EDWARD CARSON
They were young men whom you would call by their Christian names?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes. I always call by their Christian names people whom I like. People I dislike I call something else.
EDWARD CARSON
Were all these young men about twenty?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes; twenty or twenty two. I like the society of young men.
EDWARD CARSON
Have you given money to them?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes. I think to all five - money or presents.
EDWARD CARSON
Did they give you anything?
OSCAR WILDE
Me? Me? Oh, no!
EDWARD CARSON
Did any young men visit you at the Savoy Hotel?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes, at various times.
EDWARD CARSON
Did any of these men who visited you at the Savoy have whiskies and sodas and iced champagne?
OSCAR WILDE
I can’t say what they had.
EDWARD CARSON
Do you drink champagne yourself?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes. Iced champagne is a favourite drink of mine - strongly against my doctor’s orders.
EDWARD CARSON
(sharply)
Never mind your doctor’s orders, sir!
OSCAR WILDE
I never do.
A burst of laughter from the gallery.
CUT TO:
Later the name of Walter Grainger is introduced.
EDWARD CARSON
Do you know Walter Grainger?
OSCAR WILDE
Yes.
EDWARD CARSON
How old is he?
OSCAR WILDE
He was about sixteen when I knew him.
EDWARD CARSON
How did you know him?
OSCAR WILDE
He was a servant at a certain house in High Street, Oxford, where Lord Alfred Douglas had rooms. I stayed there several times. Grainger waited at table.
EDWARD CARSON
Did he dine with you ever?
OSCAR WILDE
I never dined with him. It it’s one’s duty to serve, it’s on’s duty to serve; and if it’s one’s pleasure to dine, it’s one’s pleasure to dine.
EDWARD CARSON
Did you ever kiss him?
OSCAR WILDE
Oh, dear no! He was a peculiarly plain boy. He was, unfortunately, extremely ugly. I pitied him for it.
Murmurs from the gallery. EDWARD CARSON makes the deadly thrust.
EDWARD CARSON
Was that the reason you did not kiss him?
OSCAR WILDE
(angrily)
Oh! Mr Carson: you are pertinently insolent.
EDWARD CARSON
Did you say in support of your statement that you never kissed him?
OSCAR WILDE
(emotional)
No. It is a childish question.
EDWARD CARSON
Did you put that forward as a reason why you never kissed the boy?
OSCAR WILDE
Not at all.
EDWARD CARSON
Why, sir, did you mention the boy was extremely ugly?
OSCAR WILDE
For this reason. If I were asked why I did not kiss a door mat, I should say because I do not like to kiss door mats. I do not know why I mentioned that he was ugly, except that I was stung by the insolent question you put to me and the way you have insulted me throughout this hearing. Am I to be cross-examined because I do not like it? It is ridiculous to imagine that any such thing could have happened in the circumstances.
EDWARD CARSON
Then ask why did you mention his ugliness, I ask you?
OSCAR WILDE
Perhaps you insulted me by an insulting question.
EDWARD CARSON
Was that the reason why you should say the boy was ugly?
OSCAR WILDE is rendered inarticulate. He tries to mumble an answer. EDWARD CARSON continues his staccato interrogation.
EDWARD CARSON (CONT’D)
Why? Why? Why did you add that?
OSCAR WILDE forces a desperate explanation.
OSCAR WILDE
You sting me and insult me and try to unnerve me - and at times one says things flippantly when one ought to speak more seriously. I admit it.
EDWARD CARSON
Then you said it flippantly?
OSCAR WILDE
Oh yes, it was a flippant answer.
But the damage is done as OSCAR WILDE glances round the courtroom full of murmur and hostile eyes.
I'm certainly not familiar with every detail of the case, but my point was that, since he pleaded guilty on the basis of an understanding with the judge, and the judge then went back on that after Polanski had pleaded guilty, it's hardly surprising that he ran away. I'm not saying Polanski was in the right or that he didn't deserve a sentence, or that it's right for people to flee justice like this, or even that the plea bargain was right or fair, but given that justice at the time was blowing hot and cold and was, as you point out, changing its mind on the basis of 'controversy and public condemnation', I do feel these are factors that strongly mitigate Polanski's running away - not his rape of a teenage girl.Lemmy Caution wrote:I don't understand those who say that Polanski "understandably fled."
I mean, it's understandable that he didn't want to go to jail, and that he had a foreign passport and the money (and the opportunity) that enabled him to leave.
I think it's understandable that his plea to a much lesser charge and fairly minimal sentencing aroused controversy and public condemnation. And I think it's understandable in light of that that the judge reconsidered the plea agreement.
I also wonder how Polanski sympathizers would feel if he was caught and faced extradition just one year after fleeing. I'm unsure why the fact that he was able to live comfortably and publicly for 30 years -- essentially, fleeing justice paid off well for him -- makes a difference.
American lynch mobs never die; they only become more self-righteous about their savagery. [9/28/09]