criterionforum.org

Isn't the issue with the restoration itself, i.e. the only difference between seeing it on the big screen and off of the CC Blu is some additional compression?

If David Hare is right: Pathe fucked up the transfer, the restoration is great people here have said.

Sad, sad. Was a sure buy for me 3 weeks ago and now it's not, after I saw the screenshots and read through this thread. Will need to wait longer to hear more reactions from Carne experts/hardcores before I decide now.

In the minority here but after looking at all the available screen captures from various reviews I have to say I kinda like the way it looks. I have seen this film a number of times since Criterion first issued it on LD and it is one of my favs. The waxiness that The Beaver's captures illustrate give the film a slightly unrealistic look that I find pleasant.

From what I'm reading in the thread, this was probably not the goal of the restoration but I can live with it.

The waxiness that The Beaver's captures illustrate give the film a slightly unrealistic look that I find pleasant.

The DVD Beaver captures are blurred. (The clue is if you look at the soft edges where the black bars meet the active picture area - they're not a pixel-sharp transition on the BD due to the scaling down from a higher resolution master, but they're much clearer than that). People need to keep this in mind when they use DVD Beaver as a resource.

Blu-ray.com has captures with the full frequency response.

David M. wrote:

The waxiness that The Beaver's captures illustrate give the film a slightly unrealistic look that I find pleasant.

The DVD Beaver captures are blurred. (The clue is if you look at the soft edges where the black bars meet the active picture area - they're not a pixel-sharp transition on the BD due to the scaling down from a higher resolution master, but they're much clearer than that). People need to keep this in mind when they use DVD Beaver as a resource.

Blu-ray.com has captures with the full frequency response.

I saw those, too. As well as Blu-Ray Definition and a couple of others.

People are getting really upset on facebook and amazon about the video quality. Could criterion recall the Blu-rays and fix them if enough people complain?

They could, but they won't. They've already deemed it good enough to release. It's certainly better than the DVD edition, and it's not nearly as bad as other discs they've released in the face of widespread complaint (cf. L'Enfance nue).

And even if they did recall them, what materials would they replace it with? The Pathé transfer was "botched" before it even got to them. Would they seriously consider using the unrestored version from their previous DVD? Or does the current restoration just need a contrast boost?

They could just get the restored negative from Pathe and transfer it themselves.

There is no "restored negative." As I mentioned on the last page, this was a purely digital restoration. They could conceivably ask for the raw 4K scan of the film elements and do their own digital restoration, but that's not going to happen.

I'm as big fan of this film as anyone on this forum, but let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. We know this could probably look better, and it's disappointing that it doesn't. But it looks vastly better than the old DVD, and considering the history of this film, we're lucky it survives at all, let alone that it survives in such good shape.

kawest wrote:

feihong wrote: It would really be kind of horrible to think of this film and Le Samourai out there with great, restored prints and no acceptable blu-ray of either film.

FWIW: There are no 35mm prints of the 4K restoration of CHILDREN OF PARADISE. All screenings in the US and Europe have been DCP. Many European restorations in the last few years have foregone the manufacture of a printing internegative derived from the 2K or 4K data; very few licensors can afford the expense of making an internegative, on top of prints, so DCP (or Blu-ray) is the only option for exhibitors.

I was going to post this. It's interesting that this is the first title in the Janus catalog only offered on DCP (*and that's not entirely true because it is available on 35mm, but not in the newest restoration).

I just got the Blu-Ray today, and I must say the outrage over the transfer is a little overheated. Now, do I suspect some grain smoothing was involved? Possibly. I did notice what could be DNR, but, at least in my opinion, it's nothing too major. I'm no expert on what is inherited softness and digitally-created softness, but I think that many of the soft shots are inherited. I noticed many shots in the film which looked downright excellent. Overall, I'd say the transfer looks good in-motion, and I recommend you pick it up. And even if the transfer looks off to you (like I said, I'm not an expert on these things, and you might differently than me), the extras included are excellent, and the package design is wonderful.

The Narrator Returns wrote:I just got the Blu-Ray today, and I must say the outrage over the transfer is a little overheated. Now, do I suspect some grain smoothing was involved? Possibly. I did notice what could be DNR, but, at least in my opinion, it's nothing too major. I'm no expert on what is inherited softness and digitally-created softness, but I think that many of the soft shots are inherited. I noticed many shots in the film which looked downright excellent. Overall, I'd say the transfer looks good in-motion, and I recommend you pick it up. And even if the transfer looks off to you (like I said, I'm not an expert on these things, and you might differently than me), the extras included are excellent, and the package design is wonderful.

Some people weren't too keen on The Rules of the Game blu ray, though I wasn't one of them. I wonder if these films with incredibly difficult histories are just also at risk of having their physical deficiencies brought out that much more with such high quality?

Now that it's out, what do people think of the quality? I rented the blu-ray and watched Part 1 today, and it certainly didn't look as bad as the Beaver caps. The grain structure did sometimes look a little uneven, but not terribly much so. I saw plenty of very sharp shots and it looked only about a hundred-million times more lustrous than the DVD version of the film.

I have only received the Second Sight version so far and must say I was greatly relieved. Yes, some shots look over smooth but never waxy or totally devoid of grain. Given I am watching only on a 42 inch screen, it's certainly not a throwing the toys out the pram scenario like with Le Samourai for example. A propos that particularly thorny problem I wonder if Criterion are lumbered with the Pathé master

Not had a chance to watch Children of Paradise BD yet but I did watch Les Visiteurs du Soir three days ago and it's one of the most beautiful b/w titles in the entire collection.

feihong wrote:Now that it's out, what do people think of the quality? I rented the blu-ray and watched Part 1 today, and it certainly didn't look as bad as the Beaver caps. The grain structure did sometimes look a little uneven, but not terribly much so. I saw plenty of very sharp shots and it looked only about a hundred-million times more lustrous than the DVD version of the film.

Considering the condition of the source material that had to be restored it looks pretty good.

At the Cinematheque Francaise...

LES ENFANTS DU PARADIS, L'EXPOSITION
24 octobre 2012 - 27 janvier 2013

L’exposition présentera plus de 300 pièces : Peintures, gouaches, photographies, archives, costumes, accessoires, affiches, appareils…

Le parcours sera ponctué de nombreux extraits audiovisuels (films, documentaires, actualités, musique) et divisé en dix séquences :
- Les sources d’inspiration
- Le scénario de Jacques Prévert
- Un quatuor (Prévert, Carné, Trauner, Kosma) et une équipe
- La production du film sous l’Occupation
- Le Tournage
- Les acteurs et les costumes
- La musique
- Une troisième époque, jamais tournée…
- La sortie du film
- Postérité.
L’occasion de redécouvrir l’histoire d’un film majeur du cinéma.

Exhibition catalogue also coming on 20th October....

Les Enfants du paradis, le livre

Sous la direction de Laurent Mannoni et Stéphanie Salmon.

Textes de Carole Aurouet, Hervé Joly, Stéphane Lerouge, Laurent Mannoni, Pascal Ory, Stéphanie Salmon, Serge Toubiana.

264 pages au format : 230 x 285 mm
plus de 200 documents

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:A propos that particularly thorny problem I wonder if Criterion are lumbered with the Pathé master

It depends on whether the DNR was added during or after the telecine. If "during", then the master is basically fucked and the telecine will have to be redone if the DNR is a deal-breaker, as it's unremovable. If "after", there's a lot more room to manoeuvre because it's notionally possible to obtain an unadulterated master - fortunately, this happened with Arrow on The Conformist which is why their version looks a lot better than the DNR-smeared Italian edition.

MichaelB wrote:

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:A propos that particularly thorny problem I wonder if Criterion are lumbered with the Pathé master

It depends on whether the DNR was added during or after the telecine. If "during", then the master is basically fucked and the telecine will have to be redone if the DNR is a deal-breaker, as it's unremovable. If "after", there's a lot more room to manoeuvre because it's notionally possible to obtain an unadulterated master - fortunately, this happened with Arrow on The Conformist which is why their version looks a lot better than the DNR-smeared Italian edition.

One lives in hope.

Nick on the Criterion BD. Finally got to watch it this weekend and I pretty much agree, though I wouldn't be quite so harsh. It's definitely watchable and, as Nick says, some long shots are stunning. There's enough three-dimensionality and detail in the long shots of the Boulevard du Crime that my wife remarked that it felt like you could reach out and break off a piece of a building façade. But overall Les Enfants simple doesn't have image depth and organic look of film that Les Visiteuers, which was filmed a scant year earlier under similar conditions. If the recent release of Casablanca is representative of what a 4K resto of a B&W film of that era should look like on Blu-ray, then Les Enfants falls wide of the mark significantly. Still, I love the film and would still own the BD for those afore mentioned segments that are so stunning.

Marcel Herrand plays Renaud in Les Visiteurs and Lacenaire in Les Enfants. In the former he displays a deep scar on his left cheek. That scar is gone in the latter film. The scar isn't germane to the plot development in Les Visiteurs (no duels, etc) and is never alluded to, so it seems unlikely that it was added through make-up. Does anyone know if the scar was real or not? I ask because it is Lacenaire who consistently look the "pastiest" in Les Enfants and I wonder if some of that might be due to heavy make-up.

EDIT: Always google before you ask. Apparently the scar was a make-up device. See here and here. Another good theory shot to pieces.

triodelover wrote:If the recent release of Casablanca is representative of what a 4K resto of a B&W film of that era should look like on Blu-ray, then Les Enfants falls wide of the mark significantly.

Apples and oranges. You can't compare an American studio film that has been resting comfortably in the best studio vault with a French film made under the occupation on scraps that survives in any watchable state thanks to a succession of miracles. I'm not saying Les Enfants couldn't look better, but it does look pretty good considering... If only Pathé and their restorers had left well enough alone. I'd rather see a damaged film that looks like film than a pristine image that looks like a video game.

I think what really got me was how clothing looked like it was made from vinyl in most cases. It's just a bizarre looking transfer and really erratic.

Matt wrote:

triodelover wrote:If the recent release of Casablanca is representative of what a 4K resto of a B&W film of that era should look like on Blu-ray, then Les Enfants falls wide of the mark significantly.

Apples and oranges. You can't compare an American studio film that has been resting comfortably in the best studio vault with a French film made under the occupation on scraps that survives in any watchable state thanks to a succession of miracles. I'm not saying Les Enfants couldn't look better, but it does look pretty good considering... If only Pathé and their restorers had left well enough alone. I'd rather see a damaged film that looks like film than a pristine image that looks like a video game.

I am well aware of the different conditions surrounding the shooting, storage and preservation of the two films. I didn't think that required stating.

Since at its best (in the long shots of the Boulevard du Crime, for example) Les Enfants looks every bit as good as the new resto of Casablanca (you understand I'm not referring to the 2008 BD), I think my statement remains valid. Could all of Les Enfants have looked that good had Pathé shown proper restraint? That's unlikely given the unevenness throughout the film resulting from the conditions you describe and I wasn't suggesting that. Conceding that it would have to show more damage, there's no reason that Les Enfants couldn't show the depth of image, level of detail and grain exhibited in Casablanca or at least more often than it does.

Since you don't care for the Casablanca reference, one only has to look at Les Visiteurs, which is from a 2K datacine, to see how good a French film shot under the conditions of the Nazi occupation can look on BD. No "pretty good considering" required for that one. As I said, it's enjoyable viewing and the image is exciting at its best. But it also disappoints and that wasn't necessary.